Skip to content

Allah

September 21, 2010

Why Are Religious Claims a Target for the Extraordinary Claims Campaign?
Some comments on Supernatural Claims, Evidence, and the Burden of Proof

The Claims:

Allah is the Arabic word for God. Although employed by both Arab Christians and Muslims to refer to their deity, Allah is most commonly used to refer to God in the context of Islam. The word Islam means “submission (to God)” and Islam’s sacred text, the Qur’an, is considered by adherents to be the verbatim, inerrant word of Allah. Mohammed is said to be Allah’s latest and most authoritative prophet.

Adherents believe that Allah engages in constant divine intervention in the world – in fact, all events in the universe are said to be a reflection of the will of Allah. Characteristics attributed to Allah generally include: unity, sovereignty, omnipotence, eternalness, and the propensity to reveal Himself as loving and illuminating.

The Evidence:

Although the Qur’an is commonly cited as a reference to demonstrate the existence of Allah, this sacred text is not considered to be an inerrant source of knowledge by non-Muslims.

The objective evidence for the existence of Allah is equivalent to that for the existence of the other ~2800 deities in which humans have believed over the millennia – that is, there is none. Furthermore, the claim that Allah exists is undermined by all of the same paradoxes, logical contradictions, and inconsistencies with observable evidence that cause problems for the general claim that a God exists.

Conclusion:

In the absence of any evidence or reason to think otherwise, it is reasonable to conclude that Allah – like all other gods – is a mythological entity created by humans.

Links:
A Critical Examination of the Qur’an

Wikipedia Page on God in Islam

Who is Allah?

Concept of God in Islam

The Explanation of the 13 Attributes of Allah

Allah.org

The Character of God in the Qur’an

Godchecker’s Mythology Encyclopedia: Allah

138 Comments leave one →
  1. Bodski permalink
    June 15, 2012 7:08 AM

    keem

    I like your comment and think that it is important that the religious and non-religious can live side by side. I do have some further comments for you to consider:

    1. I believe that it is helpful to discuss these matters – both the religious and non-religious may learn as a result of the debate. This site simply is about the evidence for extraordinary claims (in this case Allah, but there are similar pages for claims).

    2. In order to live together peacefully, it is essential that no priviledge is given to any one religion over another religion (or indeed no religion). Examples of priviledge include the following:

    – the religious mutilation of baby boys’ genitals
    – the teaching of religious beliefs as fact in schools
    – the restriction of scientific progress where this conflicts with religion

    There are many others and the complaints vary across the globe.

    Peace

    Bod. ~O

  2. keem permalink
    June 8, 2012 3:30 PM

    “If there is a difference among [people], it can only be in their imperfect understanding of the Quran and its Message; but if this difference of opinion is within limits of acceptable interpretations, it is not bad nor evil, nor is it dangerous or injurious to the collective. If however, people go beyond the acceptable limits and start arguing on a political, sectarian, or sophistic basis (for argument sake) then there is no cure for such disputes”
    p. 428, Encyclopedia of Seerah, Vol. 6

    Can we all at least agree that it’s possible for the faithful and the atheist to live together in peace? That ultimately any ‘religious’ individual that preaches or stirs the pot, so to speak, is doing so at the cost of the very belief they think they’re fighting for?

    Setting out to disprove something that was never proven to begin with seems like an exercise in futility. If you don’t believe in it, fantastic! I wish you all the best. If you do, that’s great too. You still both have a tremendous capacity for empathy, compassion and collaboration.

    Ultimately I suppose what I’m trying to say is shut up. Shut. The fuck. Up.

    Stop whining about the religious. Stop whining about atheists. Stop preaching.

    -exeunt-

  3. Ryan permalink
    March 1, 2012 10:56 AM

    This site doesn’t say God definitely doesn’t exist. We can’t say God definitely does not exist, just as we can’t say that leprechauns or chi or pixies definitely don’t exist. But what we can say is that there is monumental evidence pointing towards God not being a real entity who relates or communicates or cares about us. Even though we have so much evidence on our side, we still never claim we know God DEFINITELY doesn’t exist; we’re not that arrogant. And we’re willing to change our minds if shown the evidence (proper evidence, not someone’s hearsay or anecdotal account)

    Remember that it is RELIGIOUS people that claim they DEFINITELY know God exists with absolutely NO EVIDENCE. There’s another problem: that claim opens an even greater flood of questions than it attempts to answer.

    And I would just like to comment at the comical irony that is religious people. Look at the first post by Abdhalkhazz’aar: “Don’t attack the religion of peace! May Allah destroy you!!!” If you don’t see the irony, you’re only blinded by your devotion to your cult of “peace”,

    Anyway, I hope you see the light as this is the only world you’ll have and the only life you’ll live. The universe and its cosmos are much more magnificent and beautiful than any ancient holy texts out there. If only you were open-minded, do your research, you’ll see the light yourself.

    Wish you the best in life,
    Your fellow primate

  4. Bodski permalink
    August 12, 2011 10:51 AM

    John

    (unsing your logic, and mine)

    There is no more proof of Allah than there is of the tooth fairy.

    This seems to be what I am finding on this site.

    Peace

    Bod

  5. John permalink
    August 12, 2011 3:02 AM

    I havn’t come here to see if they don’t exist because that is obvious. Your claim to say even a toothfairy doesn’t exist is extrodinary. Because the thing your dismissing is extrodinary. Is not a tooth fairy extrodinary? Find your own proof and then start judging the evidence and proofs other people have. You have nothing at least they have spirituality, their proof could be their spirituality, it may prove the existance of god. What do you have that can deny that?

  6. August 7, 2011 11:15 AM

    Sorry John, I meant:

    There is no extraordinary claim that god or allah does not exist any more than there is an extraordinary claim that pixies, the easter bunny or the boogieman do not exist.

  7. August 7, 2011 11:12 AM

    John

    (This is not my website).

    You rather miss the point here. There is no extraordinary claim that god or allah does not exist any more than there is a claim that pixies, the easter bunny or the boogieman exist. Unless you were told of this you wouldn’t believe it…. because there is no evidence.

    Whilst your argument seems to be requesting evidence that these things do not exist, that misses the point and in any event is impossible.

    I come here to see if anyone can post evidence, but haven’t seen any. I don’t come here to see if there is any evidence that allah, the easter bunny or the tooth fairy do not exist, because that is plainly obvious.

    Peace

    Bod

  8. john permalink
    August 6, 2011 3:17 PM

    To Owner of website:
    Your website is is messed up your contradicting your own points, You say extrodinary claims require extrodinary evidence and yet you yourself are unable to provide extrondinary evidence for your extrodinary claim that god does not exist. That allah does not exist. I think you should add to your list of unprovn things, the inexistance of god

  9. Bodski permalink
    July 15, 2011 6:33 PM

    All

    This site is about evidence. The clue is in the tagline “Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence”. To come to this site, sign up and then comment that it is stupid to require extraordinary evidence for extraordinary claims is kind of the theological equivalent of stamping your feet and walking off in a sulk.

    Can we please get back to the evidence (or otherwise).

    Peace

    Bod.

    P.S. Atom – did I get your assertions of evidence for creation of humans by Allah right ?

    “1) In previous posts you provided proofs.

    I have read all of the previous posts and have seen no proof of creation of humans by a magic man in the sky. Perhaps you would like to be more specific ?

    2) Some scientists have stated that only a creator could have made some statements in the Quran

    I think that we must all agree that there are also scientists in the world who disagree with this point, therefore it is no proof whatever.”

    Is that all we have ???

  10. bangobango permalink
    July 15, 2011 2:19 PM

    @Larry

    “If we were extrodinary we would stop war, end poverty, and disease.”

    I hope that you can realise, that not every person in the world agrees on everything (obviously). I do think those things are extraordinary compared to how humans lived in the past. Yes, we are not perfect, I never said that we were. And no, we haven’t made a “heaven on earth” so to speak, where everything is perfect and nobody hates or kills or is mean. I believe that to think that this is even possible is a delusion in itself. But that does not mean that we can not work towards those goals. No god will do this for us, now, or after we are dead. If we want a heaven, we are going to have to build it ourselves.

    “We do not have the abilities to control our selfish behaviour.”

    Speak for yourself. I do not steal, kill or rape. Because I believe that those things are wrong. You are lumping the entire human species as one. Which it is not.

    “You can’t even prove that what your seeing around you is even real or if perceptions are actually reliable.”

    Of course not. However, what we can do is to test, repeatably what we do precieve as reality. People thought that it was perposterous that little things called atoms could ever exist that we can’t see. But (to the best possibility) we have proven that they do. No one has ever seen an atom with thier naked eye, but neither has anyone seen the wind. But we can demonstrate that it is there. If the atom and the particles that make it up did not exist, then the computer you are reading this one would be nothing but some expensive plastic and metal.

    “Admit we really know nothing.”

    No.

    “Therefore you guys are wasting your time this site does not hold any valididty. Its statement is false and untrue and a waste of time.
    Larry”

    Realise, please, that this is exactly the same way that I feel about you. I feel that you are deluded and wasting your time praying to the sky, when nothing will come of it. Your holy book has no validity. Neither does any other holy book.

    Jeff: “Thsi site so stupid to claim that there is no god (allah) requires extrodinary evidence therefore extrodinary claims require extrodinary evidence. You guys are sad.”

    Excellent argument, Jeff! I’m convinced. Sign me up.
    /sarcasm.

  11. jeff permalink
    July 15, 2011 11:29 AM

    Thsi site so stupid to claim that there is no god (allah) requires extrodinary evidence therefore extrodinary claims require extrodinary evidence. You guys are sad.

  12. atom permalink
    July 15, 2011 7:33 AM

    Allah created the universe and all the creation including ourselves. He has chosen to communicate with us and send us his guidance through prophets and messengers peace be upon them all. They all came with the same message: Believe and worship only One God: Your Creator. Every nation on earth was sent a messenger and the last and final messenger came with the last and final revelation that is universal, applicable and valid everywhere and any time until the last day.
    Accept it or reject it, it is your business. The message has been brought to you, so you have no excuse at all. You owe it to yourself, read the Quran by yourself.
    Remember, there is only one Quran wherever you go in the world. The muslims may have split into kind of sects like shiites, but even there, they have the same Quran we have. There is ONLY ONE. and it has been preserved in its original text. Previous posts show the evidences for that. Now if you think you are better and your knowledge is far superior to the eminent scientists in the videos below, then produce your proof if you say the truth.
    I am glad that at least one person reading this thread “Larry” who was atheist, opened his mind and his heart and found the truth.
    This is my last post. I agree with Larry, this is a waist of time. Some people think they are extraordinary…Atheist are minority in this world, so they believe they are extraordinary, that’s why they require extraordinary evidence. And even if it is in front of them, Allah will make it invisible for them because of their arrogance towards Him. “Whomever Allah misguides, no one can guide and whomever Allah guides, no one can misguide” (Quran).

    Peace

  13. July 14, 2011 7:51 PM

    Oh yes…your imaginary friend “allah” will destroy him…what a nice guy your imaginary friend is to destroy a human being for basically talking back to him”….what a loving and forging imaginary friend…

    Anyone who believes in “God” or “Allah” or whatever else people call their imaginary friend are weak minded people. These types of people cannot b good people without the fear of their imaginary friend destroying them or sending them to hell, or whatever…

    Real strength comes in being a good person and doing the right thing by believing in yourself. You don’t have to worship anyone to do the right thing. All “believers” are weak minded followers. That’s it, that’s all.

    If I’m wrong may Allah strike me down right now (not an Allah believer, we know you idiots can be violent murderers..but Allaha himself)… I’m waiitng….oh, he must be busy letting the Islamic countries be bombed by the USA…that’s it. Fucking morons….

  14. Larry permalink
    July 14, 2011 6:26 PM

    Therefore you guys are wasting your time this site does not hold any valididty. Its statement is false and untrue and a waste of time.
    Larry
    Good Look

  15. Larry permalink
    July 14, 2011 6:24 PM

    Nothing extrodinary can be proven by inextrodinary people.

  16. Larry permalink
    July 14, 2011 6:23 PM

    All I can Say once again is egotististical. Your fooling yourself and I pity you.

  17. Bodski permalink
    July 14, 2011 6:13 PM

    Bod
    -Thats exactly the point, you guys are stalling your lives and deceiving youreselves. Extrodinary claims can’t be backed up with extrodinary evidence because we are not extrodinary people. Vain and egotistical we are but not extrodinary. We do not have the scientific advancements or the intellegence to find evidence for extrodinary things like God or our souls. We can find cures and how to make lawns grow faster but thats it unfortuanatly. That is why it is neccesary for indviduals to take leaps of faith. As kirkegaard once said true knowledge can only be attained through a miraculous intervention. We ouselves know nothing. We as indivduals cannot even prove our own existance how can we prove the existance of God?

    Larry

    Thankyou for your acceptance that there is insufficient evidence for the extraodinary claim of Allah. Of course, that doesn’t mean that Allah doesn’t exist, and I am sure that there are places where discussions about the existence or otherwise of Allah may be held without the need for evidence, however, this is not that place.

    To close off, I disagree with your assertion that humans are not extraordinary. I have pondered this for some time: why are human beings important ? In terms of the amount of time we have lived on this planet, it is insignificant when compared to dinosaurs or other life forms. Left to my own devices I didn’t find anything I could objectively hold as extraordinary about humans. Without and god in my life, all I had was my subjective love of humanity to think of humans as in any way better or more important or more significant than that of any other life form.

    This video, without the need for god, gave me a much more wonderful explanation.

    [youtube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqc9zX04DXs&w=560&h=349%5D

  18. Larry permalink
    July 14, 2011 6:04 PM

    Bango…
    Thanks for being the perfect example for my agruement…egotistical.
    These things arne’t extrodinary because you having nothing to compare extrodinary too. If we were extrodinary we would stop war, end poverty, and disease. Extrodinary is not just depended on what we can invent but how we use our inventions. We do not have the abilities to control our selfish behaviour. And if we are so weak and stupid that we can’t control our behaviour then how can we control anything in our world. If you have the capabilities to do this then you are extrodinary if not your just a flawed human being who can see atoms and send hovering satelites to space. You can’t even prove that what your seeing around you is even real or if perceptions are actually reliable. Admit we really know nothing.

  19. bangobango permalink
    July 14, 2011 5:45 PM

    Larry,

    Are you kidding me?
    You don’t think that it’s extraordinary that we have not only discovered things which we can not see, like atoms, but figured out how they work, and what they are made of, and what THOSE parts are made of? Is it not extraordinary that have increased the average lifetime of the average human by 200% compared to what it was 1000 years ago? Is it not extraordinary that we’ve built machines which can peer to the very limits of space to view the universe as it was when it was just beginning? If you don’t think the evidence for quantum mechanics is extraordinary, then you do not understand it at all. These are extraordinary things, which are backed by mountains of extraordinary evidence.
    Allah is not.

  20. Larry permalink
    July 14, 2011 4:50 PM

    Bod
    -Thats exactly the point, you guys are stalling your lives and deceiving youreselves. Extrodinary claims can’t be backed up with extrodinary evidence because we are not extrodinary people. Vain and egotistical we are but not extrodinary. We do not have the scientific advancements or the intellegence to find evidence for extrodinary things like God or our souls. We can find cures and how to make lawns grow faster but thats it unfortuanatly. That is why it is neccesary for indviduals to take leaps of faith. As kirkegaard once said true knowledge can only be attained through a miraculous intervention. We ouselves know nothing. We as indivduals cannot even prove our own existance how can we prove the existance of God?

  21. Bodski permalink
    July 14, 2011 1:36 PM

    Atom

    I’m not called Bob, it’s Bod.

    The rest of your text is riddled with so many flaws and contradictions I do not know where to start. I suggested that you list the strongest form of evidence for creation. Is that what you did ? If so, then the best arguments for creation you were able to put forward would be:

    1) In previous posts you provided proofs.

    I have read all of the previous posts and have seen no proof of creation of humans by a magic man in the sky. Perhaps you would like to be more specific ?

    2) Some scientists have stated that only a creator could have made some statements in the Quran

    I think that we must all agree that there are also scientists in the world who disagree with this point, therefore it is no proof whatever.

    I have seen you write to others suggesting that they go back through your previous posts and ‘you will find what you are looking for’. I did this and didn’t find anything I would consider proof.

    Perhaps we should clarify whether or not this really is the best evidence for creation of human beings by Allah before moving on to evidence for evolution of humans.

    Over to you buddy….

  22. bangobango permalink
    July 14, 2011 12:25 PM

    Atom: Evolution may be valid for animals and plants

    -We are animals, though. We classified homo sapien with the great apes back in the 1800′s.

    Atom: But the theory of evolution advanced by Darwin for human beings isn’t valid and has been dismissed by science and scientists long ago

    -Please cite a referance for that. I don’t think that is true at all.

    Atom: The Quran speaks about Human development in the womb (embryology) in great details

    -I found those passages to be very vague, and nothing that a person who worked with animals wouldn’t be able to figure out at the time.

    The Quran also talks several times about boiling water being used for torture, or punishment in hell. Do you know if it says anywhere anything about boiling water to clean it for drinking? Would this not be an important bit of information for allah to give to his followers? I do not think it does, but I may be wrong.

  23. atom permalink
    July 14, 2011 11:06 AM

    Bob,
    Evolution may be valid for animals and plants. Dinosaures existed, huge birds existed and then smaller versions have replaced them after their extinction. But the theory of evolution advanced by Darwin for human beings isn’t valid and has been dismissed by science and scientists long ago. I don’t undertand how you could still believe in that.
    Even if it was valid, what does it have to do with the proof of the supreme creator of the universe? How did the universe come to existance? It is a solid and established scientific fact that it originates from the big bang. The heavens and the earth were joined together as one mass and then and enormously huge energy caused the big explosion that gave birth to the universe we are in. Where did that energy come from? Is it evolution?

    In the previous posts I had posted so many proofs, videos of renoun scientists who confirmed that the statements in the Quran about science could not have come to Muhammad from other than the Creator Himself “Allah”. Muhammad was a bedouin, he couldn’t read or write, and even if he could, he couldn’t have come up 1400 years ago with so many scientific statements that ended up being confirmed by modern science to be true (hundreds of years after his death). He would have earned hundreds of Nobel prizes. The Quran speaks about Human development in the womb (embryology) in great details, about astronomy, botany, water cycle, oceans, geology, etc etc.
    Why? The reason is simple: Allah wanted his final message to us to be universal, valid for all times, and he put in it too many signs as proofs of the authenticity of the Quran.
    Just read it. I have posted previously so many evidences since this site is about evidences. But still, many people ignored them and didn’t read them, nor they watched the videos then say, bring your evidence!
    Please go back and read all this thread and you will find what you are asking for.

    Peace

  24. Bodski permalink
    July 14, 2011 8:27 AM

    Atom

    “But when you look at Human being, the animals, the plants, the creation in general, so perfectly designed!! you refuse to admit there is a great designer behind it. What’s wrong with your minds?”

    The reason for this in my mind is because of the mountain of evidence in favour of evolution by natural selection. This site is about evidence. I don’t see any evidence for Allah of anything like the strength of that for evolution.

    Of course, this is only one element, but perhaps you could list your strongest forms of evidence for creation and I will do similar for evolution.

    Remeber – it is based upon evidence for this site – there are other places to discuss based upon other things.

    Larry

    “One must take a leap of faith when considering to follow any reliogen”

    This site is about evidence. Requiring a leap of faith suggests a lack of evidence.

    Peace

    Bod.

  25. atom permalink
    July 13, 2011 4:18 PM

    @ Larry
    Great news Larry, welcome to Islam. I was really glad to read your post.

    As I said in my previous posts, one has to be open minded and put all preconceived ideas and prejudices aside. Forget all what the media propagates and what some people may say. Just do your own genuine search for the truth.

    And one important advice, if you want to learn about a religion, don’t look at its followers in the first place, go read their holy book first. Quran self proves itself to be the word of Allah because of all what it contains.

    Islam is the only religion that makes you believe with a real faith, NOT a blind one because it’s backed up with logical and irrefutable proofs.

    What are really the arguments of atheists to “not believe” in God? They will never be able to proof he doesn’t exist, that’s why they ask believers to prove he exists and want material and physical proof of his existance…they basically want to see him.

    Their arguments are purely emotional: if there was a God, why would he allow so much pain, suffering and injustice on earth? This is all the result of man’s behaviour, and one day, everyone will be judged for what he did on this earth.

    A muslim scholar once was invited to a debate with atheists about the existance of God. He accepted at one condition: He told them, the meeting needs to be held in a place beyond “X” river after the sunset. They accepted and on that day, they waited for him for about an hour then he showed up. They were kind of mad and asked him what happened. He said, I was on time but when I reached the river I couldn’t cross it because there was no bridge, nothing. So I waited and waited….suddenly, the ground raised in the middle of the river, the water flowed to the sides and a natural bridge formed in front of me, so I crossed the river and here I am. They said and you expect us to believe this?

    He said, well…you expect people to believe even greater and worse than this. You expect us to believe that all the universe around us including the heavens and earth to have come to existance by a matter of chance…..He defeated them right before starting the debate.

    Even when you look a great painting, you admire it and say, the author is a great artist. You look at an ipad, and you say…Steve Jobs is a great designer. But when you look at Human being, the animals, the plants, the creation in general, so perfectly designed!! you refuse to admit there is a great designer behind it. What’s wrong with your minds?

    I hope more people will open their eyes and do their search for the truth with sincerity and good intention.

    Peace!

  26. Larry permalink
    July 13, 2011 3:24 PM

    Hey Mady,
    I have learned that Sometimes in life not everything can be proven empirically. Once an indvidual accepts this fact they can have the ability to make decsisions in every aspect of their life without having to depend on the claim that eventually everything will be proven scientifically. Sometimes we have to look at a momentous option and consider it critically. One must take a leap of faith when considering to follow any reliogen. Just as when a man decides to marry. He doesn’t know if his wife will be the women who will stay with him forever and love him always. The uncertainty will always be there, he will never gain any empirical data that can suggest that this women he intends to marry will love him forever. He must take a leap of faith and not allow science and technolodagy to decide his fate. If he doesnt take a leap of faith he could be alone forever and he may have lost the love of his life. The quran did guide me because of its meaning, by the way before you even try to learn about islam you must completelly disregaard all preconceived ideas about the reliogen that you get from other extremist muslims, the media, and just people around you. It’s your own search for truth do not allow other people’s ideas and emotions override your own. In the beigninng i did just that, i was disgusted of all reliogens because of the things people did and said. What i ultimatly learned in my search for truth was that it was my journey alone. Another aspect of the quran that is very intresting besides the remarkable values and beleifs that are contained in it is the scientific facts in it. I don’t know if they really prove anything significant but a lot of scientists have agreed on its valididty. I however have converted to islam purely based on faith and love. I have fallen in love with everyword written in this book of peace. When i read it or when i pray i feel calm and content that is why i encouradge every indivdual on this forumn to give islam a try and get rid of all preconceived ideas about the religen.

  27. Albert permalink
    April 23, 2011 8:47 AM

    @atom You and the guy in that video who asks “Does God Exist?” are completely delusional. Put your faith in yourself, your family and your friends, not in an imaginary friend. If you put half as much faith or research into science without believing this guy who says that “Science can also be gods” <- This is just propaganda from religious types who try and try their best to make sure you don't stop believing in their imaginary friend. It's ridiculous and only the truly brainwashed, lost and weak minded people would fall for that. There is No god. There are no Gods. Get it into your thick heads!!! You CAN be a good person who cares about family, world issues and such without praying to the wind…

  28. Mady permalink
    March 30, 2011 6:41 PM

    @ Larry…
    You said in your comment about 2 months back that you were searching for the truth. what did u get know from QURAN ? would you plz let me know if it did guide you ,,,plzz let me know.

  29. Bodski permalink
    February 22, 2011 10:49 AM

    Atom

    I just watched the clip and wish I hadn’t. The title of this site is “Extraordinary Claims Require Extraordinary Evidence”. The video is simply an argument (and not a particularly good one), there is no evidence whatsoever therein.

    I feel that it is important that this site focusses on evidence. Otherwise, it is no different to the plethora of other sites where people are writing opinion to and using belief rather than evidence to ‘prove’ things. I have seen many of those sites and I’m sure you have too and the arguments never go anywhere. Maybe those sites would welcome the persuasive argument in the clip, however, this site is about providing evidence.

    If you can provide evidence, you might change opinion. Without it, you will be faced with people like me referring back to the title of the site. I’ll say it again, Extraordinary Claims Require Extraordinary Evidence – your video provided no evidence whatsoever, therefore, your extraordinary claim has no evidence.

    I wish you peace.

    Bod. ~O

  30. atom permalink
    February 21, 2011 10:16 PM

    Atheists, you should watch this.

  31. Bodski permalink
    January 10, 2011 10:11 PM

    I find this thread very interesting as someone who has not been exposed to Islam other than knowing some people who are Muslims and what we see in the news (and that is often not ideal).

    Much of what I have read here seems to claim that the Quran is a great book (1. it contains no contradictions; 2. it is structured around the number 19; and 3. it has never been proven wrong). Is this really the case ? If so, then it has to be considered impressive, however, this would not (for me) prove that it was written by Allah. I do accept that different people have a different way of interpretting things, thus leading to varying levels of proof which we all require.

    I suppose that an interesting question for Muslims and non-Muslims would be to ask ‘what would make you believe the contrary view ?’

    For example, if we were able to show that the Quran contained mistakes or contradictions would that cause a Muslim writing on this site to change his or her opinion ? (I think that we can clearly see errors and inconsistencies with the Bible – hence why I am absolutely not a Christian).

    Equally, what level of proof may we require as non-Muslims to accept that extraordinary evidence has been provided ? I am struggling to answer this as I don’t really have any ‘beliefs’ as such. I believe that rocks are hard, fire is hot and gravity is weak. I believe lots of other things like that and I suppose that to some extent they are subject to change (for example, if I discovered that some materials burn at low temperatures and as such have cool fires).

    I would be interested to see a comment from a Muslim which contained evidence so strong that he or she would openly consider evidence to the contrary and would renounce Islam if it were proven wrong.

    This site is deeming the existance of Allah as an extraordinary claim. The clallenge is to provide some extraordinary proof. I have read many extraordinary things and I am in no doubt that the Quran is a great book, I may even read it one day. However, I have not seen anything beyond ‘subjective proof’ (a proof from one person’s perspective which does not apply universally).

    As a final thought…. much has been made of the link between the Quran and science. Given the vast number of ‘signs’ which have been referred to in this thread from the Quran, it would be interesting to know how scientific advancement has historically varied between the Muslim and non-Muslim world.

    Peace.

    Bod. ~O

  32. sam permalink
    January 10, 2011 8:41 PM

    Take this andy!
    Muslim population growth refers to the topic of population growth of the global Muslim community. In 2006, countries with a Muslim majority had an average population growth rate of 1.8% per year (when weighted by percentage Muslim and population size).[1] This compares with a world population growth rate of 1.12% per year

    25% of American Muslims are converts to Islam.

    Refrences
    http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/30/nyregion/30converts.html?_r=1
    https://www.cia.gov/library/publications//factbook
    https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/xx.html

  33. Andy permalink
    January 10, 2011 10:42 AM

    > Only in the US, there are >20,000 CONVERTS each year. At this rate, the US will become a muslim state in less than 50 years.

    Are you really that dumb atom? Do you realise that the US has a population of just over 300 million? and the growth rate of the US population is an estimated 3-4 mllion per year?

    You should really think twice when posting your non-sense, or at-least re-read what you write to make sure you’re making sense. Though I guess if you did that, you’d never write anything.

    20,000 x 50 years = 1 million
    50,000 x 50 years = 2.5 million

  34. roont permalink
    January 10, 2011 10:20 AM

    Andy, how did you embed the video in the post? I have one I’d like to share

  35. atom permalink
    January 10, 2011 2:53 AM

    @Andy
    You and the people on the video are more lost than I thought. If it pleases you to believe you to take those people’s opinions as strong evidences, so be it, but it confirms the high level of blindness. They claim that Quran allows killing, rape, etc….how cheap are those claims, they are liars who try, in vain to justify their choices. This minority of people represent nothing in front of the fact that there are over 1.4 billion muslims in the world and growing at the fastest rate. Only in the US, there are >20,000 CONVERTS each year. At this rate, the US will become a muslim state in less than 50 years, Germany will be muslim in 15 years, France in 25 years. You can verify this on some statistic studies available in the web. Well, but for you this means that all these people are getting lost, they are all rapers, terrorists, etc. Believe what you want, but the facts are the facts and you can do nothing to change them.

  36. Andy permalink
    January 10, 2011 1:24 AM

  37. atom permalink
    January 9, 2011 4:37 PM

    @ Larry
    Finally someone genuinely willing to find the truth… I have one advice for you Larry: As an atheist, you just have to think and sincerely pray: God, if you exist, show me the way.
    If ever you need help or have questions, please ask me and we can get in touch.

    All the best and peace be upon you.

  38. Larry permalink
    January 9, 2011 12:52 PM

    Andy, seriously why on earth would you use Wikipedia as a source? I am an atheist but I actually see some remarkable proof in the Quran that god just might exist. I am researching it further but so far every question in my mind has been answered. But I am going to make sure. I advise other atheist in this forum to not be closed minded like I once was because so far as I’m reading this thread the Muslims are kind of proving us wrong. So good luck on your journeys to find the truth.

  39. December 31, 2010 12:49 AM

    Truth matters to me. There is no empirical evidence for Allah or gods of any kind, so I believe it as much as an orbiting teapot or leprechauns.

  40. Andy permalink
    December 22, 2010 9:28 PM

    > One final point: The author of the below discoveries is Dr. Rashad Khalifa (1974)

    “Dr. Rashad Khalifa claimed that he was a messenger(rasool) of God and that the Archangel Gabriel ‘most assertively’ told him that chapter 36, verse 3, of the Quran, ‘specifically’ referred to him.” Wikipedia

    “Few years before his death, Dr. Khalifa declared that he is the messenger of the covenant , Messenger of the Covenant, prophesied in the Quran in 3:81. He presented a lengthy document with proofs of his messengership from the Quran. He defended the fact that the Prophet Muhammed was the LAST Prophet according to the Quran but not the LAST messenger,” http://submission.org/khalifa.html

    So this guy proved there was a special mathematical code in the Quran and proved that he is the “the messenger of the covenant”?? And you believe this guy???? Can you say it with a straight face?

    You have to laugh.

  41. Andy permalink
    December 22, 2010 9:05 PM

    I’ve been watching this thread for a while now and no-one has put forth any actual proof for Allah. The predictions people have mentioned are a joke. There are no predictions that actually make you go “wow!”. I had expected more to be honest. I’d expected at-least one prediction that made me think for a second. There is nothing.

    The proof put forward here is just as bad as the proof on the “God” or “Christ” sections of this site. It seems like if you have decided to believe in a particular God then the quality of the “proof” you are prepared to accept is very very low indeed.

    The gibberish about there being codes in the Quran is laughable, just as bad as the supposed Torah and Bible Codes http://www.amazon.com/Bible-Code-Michael-Drosnin/dp/0684810794. As human beings we are very good at seeing patterns, even meaningless patterns. I feel sorry for atom in this regard, he is clearly deluded.

  42. atom permalink
    December 22, 2010 2:09 PM

    Sorry, no offense but you’re completely blind or you have no reason. You have all the necessary proofs and I am not the one to produce more proofs.
    READ THEM, it’s not difficult to understand, just READ from the beginning to the end.

    If you say it’s easy, PROVE IT, not the way you did by assuming or throwing theories, write a book of 300 pages, 114 chapters and over 6000 verses and make the count of words, letters perfectly intricate and coded. Believe it or not, you’ll never do it.

    As for the presumed inconsistencies you are referring to in that website…this is absolutely typical from Christians desperatley trying to discredit the Quran by taking individual passages out of context or misinterpreting, mistranslating the scripture and forging lies against it and against Allah. It’s not something new, they have done it even with their own Bible, so why would I be surprised if they try to do it with the Quran. The only difference, is that they will never be able to corrupt or change the Quran for the reasons already stated.
    And you know what? Thanks to Allah, all those listed issues on the website were addressed in previous posts, you just have to read with care.

    Anyways, bear witness that I have communicated the message as best as I could. If you don’t accept it:

    “to you be your religion, and to me mine.”[109:6]

  43. Jeff Orchard permalink
    December 22, 2010 1:22 PM

    I agree with anonymous’ assessment; the described numerological properties in the Quran do not, themselves, imply divine inspiration. After all, every 19th number is divisible by 19.

    Suppose you have 100 different quantities that you tabulate in a document (eg. number of chapters. In combinatorial notation, that’s (100 choose 1) + (100 choose 2) + … + (100 choose 100). If one out of every 19 of those is divisible by 19 (as one would expect), then you’re left with more than 10^28 “coincidences”… combinations of quantities that are divisible by 19.

    Moreover, there will be a comparable number of “coincidences” for 15, 16, 17, 18, 20, 21, etc. It’s statistically unimpressive.

    As for the Quran being free of inconsistencies, that’s just false. The Christians happily point some out,

    http://carm.org/contradictions-quran

    Finally, in response to atom’s command, “It’s not sufficient to say, well you can show me similar work or any human can do the same…YOU HAVE TO PRODUCE YOUR PROOF!” Au contraire! The onus is on the claimant to supply the proof. That’s the purpose of the Extraordinary Claims campaign in the first place.

  44. atom permalink
    December 22, 2010 10:14 AM

    What impresses and strikes me and probably many others too, is that some people keep denying things that are mindblowingly evident, logic and perfectly true. So what if it’s numerology or mathematics?

    I said in the beginning of the 1st post that the following was going to show the supernatural and non-human nature of the Quran because it has a builit-in mathematical structure coded around the number 19 that’s beyond any human capabilities. What does it proof? It proves:

    1) As stated above, impossible to imitate by a human, even by using any sophisticated means.

    2) Since its author is not and cannot be a human, certainly not an illiterate bedouin 1400 years ago, then His author has to be the one that the book itself says He is. Take it or leave it, it’s Allah the One and Only God, the Creator of this universe who is the only one worthy of worship.

    3) It is authentic, it has been preserved in its original version and it has suffered no corruption and nothing has been added to or deleted from it since its revelation to prophet Mohammed peace be upon him, not even a single lettre. Otherwise, the mathematical system would have been destroyed.

    Just read all my posts starting from the 1st one and you will understand (I know it’s long, but the topic is important, so it’s worth spending some time on it).

    4) No other scriptures available today can pass the mathematical or the scientific test as the Quran does. The Quran being the last revelation of the Creator after the Injeel (The Gospel, not the Gospels or the Old and New testament) of Jesus Christ peace be upon him, then it means that only the last one is valid and is to be followed with all due respect to my Christian and Jewish brethren.

    5) It is the only Holy scripture that has built-in proofs and undeniable evidence of Divine origin and can answer all skepticals including Historians, Atheists, Scientists, Jews, Christians, Hindus, etc. provided they open their mind and use reason, common sense and logic, and leave aside hatred, prejudices and misconceptions.

    Why am I saying that? Read all the posts since this site has started, Begin from the end and go up. You will notice that The Quran and Islam have been attacked from all sides without any evidence or solid proofs, only people’s thoughts, hatred, wrong prejudices, misconceptions, wrong interpretations, falsehood and ignorance of the real facts. This is not specific to this site and it’s not new.

    The responses from Muslims always use evidences that are logic, reasonable, veryfiable and always compatible with History and modern scientific knowledge.

    You wanted Scientific proofs, you’ve been served with evidences that include Quran verses, renoun Scientists’ statements, links, videos, etc, confirming Quran’s compatibility with modern science in all aspects.

    You wanted historical, theological, literal comparison between The Bible and Quran, you’ve been served with clear and logical evidences.

    All this was not enough and you wanted more proofs that it is the Word of a supernatural power: Again the Quran had an answer for you and gave you the greatest lesson in mathematics and numerology that the humand mind will never be able to imitate.

    “Declare: “Even if all human beings and Jinns combined their resources to produce the like of this Qur’an, they would never be able to compose the like thereof, even if they backed up each other as best as they could.” [17:88].

    This is a standing challenge to humanity since the 7th century.

    You say, this proofs nothing? With all my due respect, are you really blind or what? Did you read everything, did you ponder over the evidences? If you did, then you can’t help but to admit that this book is a living miracle in itself. You should at least ask yourself, what if this is the truth and I am being skeptical, reluctant, refractory, recalcitrant, rebellious, closed minded, blind…

    It’s not sufficient to say, well you can show me similar work or any human can do the same…YOU HAVE TO PRODUCE YOUR PROOF! GIVE ME ONE REFERENCE WITH SUCH A MATHEMATICAL STRUCTURE. WHEN I SAY SIMILAR, DON’T FORGET, THIS BOOK IS COMPOSED OF OVER 6000 VERSES AND THE COMPLEXITY GOES TO NUMBERS WITH SOMETIMES OVER 12,000 DIGITS THAT ARE STILL DIVISIBLE BY THE SAME COMMON DENOMINATOR. CAN YOU IMAGINE WHAT A NUMBER OF 12,000 DIGITS LOOKS LIKE?

    It’s also free of any inconsistency, contradiction or anything that goes against human logic and reason.

    “Why don’t they research the Qur’an? Don’t they realize that if it was from someone other than Allah, they would find many discrepancies in it.” [4:82]

    Don’t forget, if you have something against Muslims, that’s a different topic. I am not asking you to study Muslims’ behaviour, I am referring you to the Holy Quran itself. Don’t judge a religion by what you hear/see in the media. You should base your judgment on the religion itself, not its followers. Judge the Quran after you read it and research it, understand it and analyze it.

    Now the final reminder, is that, again, this book has been revealed over 1400 years ago to an illiterate man in the desert of Arabia, and it’s main message is the same message as all the previous prophets: There is no god but Allah, the One and Only, the Only one worthy of worship, He does not beget nor is he Begotten. He is the Absolute Eternal and there is nothing like Him. Seek guidance and Believe in Him, turn to Him and worship Him before it’s too late.

    “In fact, Allah increases in guidance those who seek guidance;
    everlasting are only the good deeds, which are the best in the sight of your Lord to earn you a better reward and yield you the best fruit?”[19:76]

    “Those who conceal the clear proofs and the guidance, after We have made it clear in the Book for mankind will have Allah’s curse and that of those who are entitled to curse;[159] except those who repent, reform and let the truth be known; I will accept their repentance, for I am the Receiver of Repentance, the Merciful.[160] Surely those who are unbelievers and die while they are unbelievers, they are the ones on whom is the curse of Allah, the angels and all mankind,[161] they will live in it for ever; neither their punishment shall be lightened nor shall they be given respite.[162] Your God is one God; there is no one worthy of worship except Him, the Compassionate, the Merciful.” [163] 2:[159-163].

    Remember that logically, the truth always distinguishes itself from falsehood.

    I will conclude by this verse from the Quran:

    “There is no compulsion in religion. True guidance has been made clearly distinct from error. Therefore, whoever renounces ‘Taghut’ (forces of Satan) and believes in Allah has grasped the firm hand-hold that will never break. Allah, Whose hand-hold you have grasped, hears all and knows all.”[2:256]

  45. atom permalink
    December 21, 2010 3:09 PM

    @ Anonymous,
    You make me laugh and I feel sorry for you who claim to be mathematician. I bet you haven’t read more than a few lines. Produce your proof, give me anything similar or do it yourself.
    About peace….look at the various comments over this website and all other websites including youtube etc. comments from Muslims are always courteous, humble and peaceful while others’ are so much aggressive and on the defensive, attacking muslims and Islam with no evidence, only falsehood and distorted realities. But anyways, you can mock at us as much as you want, Allah will judge between us all on the day of judgment and we will see who will mock at the others.

  46. anonymous permalink
    December 21, 2010 2:58 PM

    to the person who posted before me….

    how does finding a series of numerical patterns throughout the koran prove anything?

    (1) a human being could just as easily have created such patterns
    (2) even if not, staring at a text for long enough will usually allow you to find some sort of pattern.
    (3) finding multiples and little ways of manipulating said numbers does not have anything to do with whether or not the book is true.
    (4) WHAT YOU HAVE FOUND IS NOT IRREFUTABLE EVIDENCE. it is numerology, which is also a non-scientific pursuit. if you’re going to claim that finding multiples of a number is proof that God exists, you need to re-evaluate your knowledge of the scientific method.

    finally, however, believe what you want. if you want to follow Allah, fine, but do it peacefully. to come to this site, we know you’re curious about extraordinary claims. it is my job, as a mathematician and fellow human being to show you that numerology and “irrefutable evidence” are not the same thing.

    if you have REAL, SCIENTIFICALLY VIGOROUS PROOF, feel free to post it. otherwise, please do not post any more arithmetic.

  47. atom permalink
    December 21, 2010 12:58 PM

    One final point: The author of the below discoveries is Dr. Rashad Khalifa (1974)

  48. atom permalink
    December 21, 2010 12:55 PM

    I have posted 10 comments after J Orchard’s reply yesterday. In order to understand everything, please start from my 1st post by scrolling down down down.

    Enjoy the amazing evidence.

  49. atom permalink
    December 21, 2010 12:52 PM

    NOW WE’RE GETTING TO THE MOST COMPLEXE AN SUPERHUMAN MATHEMATICAL STRUCTURE OF THE QURAN. I DARE YOU TO ANALYZE IT WELL AND READ ALL OF IT. this is my final post.

    Let us write down the number of each verse in the Quran, preceded for each sura by the number of verses in that sura. Thus, Sura 1, which consists of seven verses, will be represented by the number 7 1234567. What we are doing here is forming long numbers by writing the numbers of verses next to each other. To find the number representing Sura 2, you write down the number of verses in this sura, 286, followed by the number of every verse, written next to each other. Thus, the number representing Sura 2 will look like this: 286 12345…..284285286. The two numbers representing the first two suras are:
    7 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 & 286 1 2 3 4 5…..284 285 286.

    Putting these two numbers together to form one number representing the first two suras, we get this number:
    7 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 286 1 2 3 4 5…..284 285 286.
    This process is continued until every verse in the Quran is written down, thus forming one very long number encompassing the number of every verse in the Quran. The number representing the whole Quran is a multiple of 19 & consists of 12692 digits, which is also a multiple of 19.
    7 1234567 286 12345…286 …5 12345 6 123456

    FIRST No: This very long number consists of 12692 digits (19×668) and includes every verse in the Quran. The number of verses in each sura precedes its verses. A special computer program that divides very long numbers has shown that this long number is a multiple of 19.

    Instead of putting the total number of verses in every sura ahead of the sura, let us put it at the end of every sura. Thus, the number representing Sura 1 will look like this: 1234567 7, instead of 7 1234567. The number representing Sura 2 will look like this: 12345…..284 285 286 286 instead of 286 12345…..284285286. The numbers representing the first two suras will look like this:
    1 2 3 4 5 6 7 7 & 1 2 3 4 5…..284 285 286 286.

    Putting these two numbers together to form a longer number representing the first two suras, we get a number that looks like this:
    1 2 3 4 5 6 7 7 1 2 3 4 5…..284 285 286 286.

    Since we are putting the total number of verses per sura at the end of each sura, we must put the total number of numbered verses (6234) at the end of the Quran. The last numbers, therefore, represent the last sura (123456 6), followed by the total number of numbered verses in the Quran (6234):
    1 2 3 4 5 6 6 & 6234 >>>>>>1 2 3 4 5 6 6 6234.

    Putting together all the verses of all the suras, produces a long number that consists of 12696 digits, and is a multiple of 19.
    1234567 7 12345…286 286 12345 5…123456 6 6234

    SECOND No: The number of every verse in every sura is followed by the number of verses per sura. The last 11 digits shown here are the 6 verses of the last sura, followed by its number of verses (6), followed by the total number of numbered verses in the Quran (6234). The complete, very long number, is a multiple of 19.

    Now let us include the number of every sura.
    Write down the number of every verse in every sura, followed by the number of the sura, followed by the number of verses in the sura. Thus, the number representing Sura 1 looks like this: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 1 7. The number representing Sura 2 looks like this: 1 2 3 4 5 …..284 285 286 2 286. The number representing the last sura (No. 114) looks like this: 1 2 3 4 5 6 114 6. Again, the total number of numbered verses (6234) is added at the end. This number, representing the whole Quran, is a multiple of 19; it looks like this:
    1234567 1 7 12345…286 2 286 …123456 114 6 6234

    THIRD No: The number of every verse, followed by the sura number, then the number of verses in the sura. The total number of numbered verses is added at the end. The long number (12930 digits) is a multiple of 19.

    Instead of putting the total number of verses in every sura after the sura, let us now put it ahead of the sura. Thus, the number representing Sura 1 looks like this: 7 1234567 1, instead of 1234567 1 7, and the number representing Sura 2 looks like this: 286 12345…..284 285 286 2, instead of 12345…..284 285 286 2 286. This very long number representing the whole Quran is a multiple of 19.
    7 1234567 1 286 12345…286 2…6 123456 114 6234

    FOURTH No: The total number of verses in each sura is followed by the number of every verse, then the sura number. The last 14 digits shown above are the number of verses in the last sura (6), followed by the numbers of the six verses (123456), followed by the number of the sura (114), then the total number of numbered verses in the Quran.

    The very long number (consisting of 12930 digits) is a multiple of 19.

    Now, let us write down the number of every verse in every sura, followed by the sum of verse numbers for every sura. Sura 1 consists of 7 verses, and the sum of verse numbers is 1+2+3+4+5+6+7 = 28. Thus, the number representing Sura 1 looks like this: 1234567 28.

    The sum of verse numbers for Sura 2 is 41041 (1+2+3+ … + 286). Thus, the number representing Sura 2 looks like this: 12345…284 285 286 41041.

    The number representing the last sura, which consists of 6 verses, looks like this: 123456 21, since 1+2+3+4+5+6 = 21.

    The complete number, representing the whole Quran, consists of 12836 digits and is a multiple of 19. It looks like this:
    1234567 28 12345…284285286 41041…123456 21

    FIFTH No: The number of every verse in every sura is followed by the sum of verse numbers. The long number consists of 12836 digits, and is a multiple of 19.

    Remarkably, if we take the “Fifth No.” shown above and reverse the order of verse numbers and sum of verse numbers, i.e., move the sum of verse numbers, and put it ahead of the sura, the resulting long number is still a multiple of 19.
    28 1234567 41041 12345….285286…..21 123456

    SIXTH No: Placing the sum of verse numbers ahead of each sura, instead of after it, produces a long number (12836 digits) that is also a multiple of 19.

    Even writing the suras backward, i.e., reversing the order of suras by starting with the last sura and ending with the first sura, and placing the sum of verse numbers after the verses of each sura, the product is still a multiple of 19
    123456 21 12345 15..12345..286 41041 1234567 28

    SEVENTH No: Reversing the order of suras — starting from the last sura and ending with the first sura — and writing down the number of every verse, with the sum of verse numbers for every sura after its verses, the product is a long number consisting of 12836 digits. This long number is a multiple of 19.

    Write the sum of verse numbers for the whole Quran (333410), followed by the total number of numbered verses in the Quran (6234), then the number of suras (114). Every sura is then represented by its number followed by its number of verses. The numbers representing Suras 1 and 2 are 1 7 and 2 286. The complete number, covering all suras of the Quran, consists of 474 digits, and is a multiple of 19 — it looks like this:
    333410 6234 114 1 7 2 286 3 200..113 5 114 6

    EIGHTH No: The Grand Sum of verse numbers (333410) is followed by the total number of numbered verses (6234), the number of suras (114), then the sura numbers and numbers of verses of every sura.

    Now let us reverse the order of sura number and its number of verses as presented in the “Eighth No.” Thus, the numbers representing the first two suras look like this: 7 1 & 286 2, instead of 1 7 & 2 286. The complete number also consists of 474 digits and is still a multiple of 19. It looks like this:
    333410 6234 114 7 1 286 2 200 3…5 113 6 114

    NINTH No: Reversing the sequence of sura number and number of verses still gives us a long number that is a multiple of 19
    If we write down the sum of verse numbers for Sura 1 (28), followed by the sum of verse numbers for Sura 2 (41041), and so on to the end of the Quran, and placing the Grand Sum of verse numbers (333410) at the end, the resulting long number (Tenth No.) consists of 377 digits, and is a multiple of 19.
    28 41041 20100 ….. 15 21 333410

    TENTH No: The sums of verse numbers for every sura in the Quran, are written next to each other, followed at the end by the Grand Sum of verse numbers (333410). This long number (377 digits) is a multiple of 19.
    If we write down the number of suras in the Quran (114), followed by the total number of numbered verses (6234), followed by the number of every sura and its sum of verse numbers, the final long number (612 digits) is a multiple of 19.
    114 6234 1 28 2 41041 3 20100…113 15 114 21

    ELEVENTH No: The number of suras, followed by the total number of numbered verses, then the number of every sura and its sum of verse numbers, produce this long number (612 digits) that is a multiple of 19.

    Lest anyone may think that any Quranic parameter is left un-guarded with this awesome mathematical code, let us look at more parameters.
    If we write down the number of suras (114), followed by the total number of numbered verses, followed by the Grand Sum of verse numbers in the whole Quran (333410), followed by the numbers of every sura and its verses, we end up with a very long number (12712 digits) that is a multiple of 19.

    If we write down the number of suras (114), followed by the total number of numbered verses, followed by the Grand Sum of verse numbers in the whole Quran (333410), followed by the numbers of every sura and its verses, we end up with a very long number (12712 digits) that is a multiple of 19.
    114 6234 333410 1 1 2 3 4 5 6 7…114 1 2 3 4 5 6
    TWELFTH NUMBER
    If we write down the numbers of verses in every sura next to each other, we end up with a 235-digit number that is a multiple of 19. To do this, write down the total number of numbered verses in the Quran (6234), followed by the number of verses in every sura, then close with the total number of numbered verses in the Quran. The final long number IS A MULTIPLE OF 19 (THIRTEENTH NUMBER)

    If we write down the number of numbered verses in the Quran (6234), followed by the number of suras (114), followed by the number of every verse in every sura, then close with the number of numbered verses in the Quran (6234) and the number of suras (114), the final number consists of 12479 digits, and is a multiple of 19.
    6234 114 1234567 12345…286…123456 6234 114
    FOURTEENTH NUMBER

    Another long number that consists of 12774 digits is formed by writing down the number of every verse in every sura, followed by the number of every sura added to its number of verses. Sura 1 consists of 7 verses, and the total 1+7 is 8. Therefore, the number representing Sura 1 looks like this: 1234567 8. Since Sura 2 consists of 286 verses, the number representing Sura 2 looks like this: 12345…286 288. This is done for every sura in the Quran. The final combined number consists of 12774 digits, and is a multiple of 19. = FIFTEENTH NUMBER

    A Witness From the Children of Israel [46:10]
    Proclaim: “What if it is from God, and you disbelieved in it? A witness from the Children of Israel has borne witness to a similar phenomenon, and he has believed, while you have turned too arrogant to believe. God does not guide the wicked.” [ 46:10 ]

    The following quotation is taken from STUDIES IN JEWISH MYSTICISM , (Association for Jewish Studies, Cambridge, Mass., Joseph Dan & Frank Talmage, eds., Page 88, 1982). The quotation refers to the work of Rabbi Judah the Pious (12th Century AD):

    The people [Jews] in France made it a custom to add [in the morning prayer] the words: “ ‘Ashrei temimei derekh [blessed are those who walk the righteous way],” and our Rabbi, the Pious, of blessed memory, wrote that they were completely and utterly wrong. It is all gross falsehood, because there are only nineteen times that the Holy Name is mentioned [in that portion of the morning prayer]… and similarly you find the word ‘Elohim nineteen times in the pericope of Ve-’elleh shemot. . . . Similarly, you find that Israel were called “sons” nineteen times, and there are many other examples. All these sets of nineteen are intricately intertwined, and they contain many secrets and esoteric meanings, which are contained in more than eight large volumes. . .

    There is much more but I will stop here.

    NOW THE CHALLENGE IS YOURS: Compose or find anything with such mathematical intrication, coding and structure to justify your denial of such irrefutable evidence. If you still not believe in the divine origin of the Quran, then no comment……

  50. atom permalink
    December 21, 2010 12:50 PM

    THE QURAN’S MATHEMATICAL STRUCTURE

    The Numbers of Suras and Verses
    Write down the sura number, followed by the number of verses in that sura, then the number of every verse, and finally, the sum of verse numbers. So, for Sura 1 you would write 1 for the sura, then 7 for the number of verses, 1234567 for each verse number, and finally 28 for the sum of verse numbers, i.e. 1 7 1234567 28. The number for Sura 2 will look like this: 2 286 123456…. 286 41041. Do the same for all the 114 suras, and than add these numbers. The total consists of 759 digits, and is a multiple of 19.

    Now write down the total number of verses in a sura, followed by the sum of verse numbers, and keep all numbers justified to the left. For example, the number of verses in Sura 1 is 7, and the sum of verse numbers is 28. Thus, the combined number for Sura 1 will be 7 28, for Sura 2 it will be 286 41041, for Sura 3 it will be 200 20100; and so on to Sura 114 for which the combined number is 6 21. Remember that these numbers are written all the way to the left, as shown in Table 28. Then add them in the usual manner, from right to left. The total of all these left justified numbers is 4,859,309,774, or 19 x 255753146.

    Finally, do the same thing as above (continuing to keep all numbers left justified), except write down the number of every verse, instead of the total number of verses. For example, the number for Sura 1 consists of its seven verse numbers (1234567) combined with the sum of those numbers (28). Thus, the combined number for Sura 1 will be 1234567 28. The combined number for Sura 114 will be 123456 21. Table 29 demonstrates this process. The total of all these left justified numbers consists of 757 digits, and is still a multiple of 19.

  51. atom permalink
    December 21, 2010 12:49 PM

    The Five Pillars of Islam
    Although the Quran provides numerous important commandments governing all aspects of our lives (see for example 17:22-38), five basic “pillars” have been traditionally emphasized. They are:
    1. Shahaadah: Bearing witness that there is no other god besides God.

    2. Salat: Observing five daily Contact Prayers.

    3. Seyaam: Fasting during the ninth month of the Islamic calendar (Ramadan).

    4. Zakat: Giving away 2.5% of one’s net income as a charity to specified people.

    5. Hajj: Pilgrimage to Mecca once in a lifetime for those who can afford it.
    Like everything else in the Quran, these are mathematically structured.

    1. Testifying that there is only One God (Shahaadah) :
    As mentioned earlier, the word “ONE” that refers to God occurs in the Quran 19 times. The reference to God “ALONE” occurs 5 times, and the sum of the sura and verse numbers where we find these five occurrences is 361, 19×19.

    The “First Pillar of Islam” is stated in 3:18 as “LAA ELAAHA ELLA HOO” (There is no other god besides Him). This most important expression occurs in 19 suras. The first occurrence is in 2:163, and the last occurrence is in 73:9. Table 22 shows that the total of sura numbers, plus the number of verses between the first and last occurrences, plus the sum of these verse numbers is 316502, or 19x 16658.
    Also, by adding the numbers of the 19 suras where LAA ELAAHA ELLA HOO occurs, plus the verse numbers where this crucial expression is found, plus the total number of occurrences (29), the Grand Total comes to 2128, or 19×112.

    2. The Contact Prayers “Salat“:
    The word “Salat “ occurs in the Quran 67 times, and when we add the numbers of suras and verses of these 67 occurrences, the total comes to 4674, or 19×246

    3. Fasting (Seyaam):
    The commandment to fast is mentioned in 2:183, 184, 185, 187, 196; 4:92; 5:89, 95; 33:35, 35; & 58:4. The total of these numbers is 1387, or 19×73. It is noteworthy that 33:35 mentions fasting twice, one for the believing men, and the other for the believing women.

    4. The Obligatory Charity (Zakat):&
    5. Hajj Pilgrimage to Mecca:

    While the first three “Pillars of Islam” are obligatory upon all Muslim men and women, the Zakat and Hajj are decreed only for those who can afford them. This explains the interesting mathematical phenomenon associated with Zakat and Hajj.
    The Zakat charity is mentioned in 2:43, 83, 110, 177, 277; 4:77, 162; 5:12, 55, 7:156; 9:5, 11, 18, 71; 18:81; 19:13, 31, 55; 21:73; 22:41, 78; 23:4; 24:37, 56; 27:3; 30:39; 31:4; 33:33; 41:7; 58:13; 73:20; and 98:5. These numbers add up to 2395. This total does not quite make it as a multiple of 19; it is up by 1.
    The Hajj Pilgrimage occurs in 2:189, 196, 197; 9:3; and 22:27. These numbers add up to 645, and this total does not quite make it as a multiple of 19; it is down by 1.
    Thus, Zakat and Hajj, together, give a total of 2395+645 = 3040 = 19×160.

  52. atom permalink
    December 21, 2010 12:17 PM

    A STRONG FOUNDATION
    The Quran’s first verse, “In the Name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful,” known as Basmalah, consists of 19 Arabic letters. Its constituent words occur in the Quran consistently in multiples of 19.

    The first word “Ism” (Name) occurs 19 times.

    The second word “Allah” (God) occurs 2698 times (19×142).

    The third word “Al-Rahman” (Most Gracious) 57 times, 19×3.

    The fourth word “Al-Raheem” (Most Merciful) 114 times, 19×6.

    Professor Cesar Majul looked at the gematrical value of more than 400 attributes of God, and found only four names whose gematrical vaues are multiples of 19:

    Divine Name Gematrical val.
    1. “Waahed” (One) 19
    2. “Zul Fadl Al-`Azim” (Possessor of Infinite Grace) 2698
    3. “Majid” (Glorious) 57
    4. “Jaami` “ (Summoner) 114

    As noted above, the only Divine Names whose gematrical values are divisible by 19 correspond exactly to the frequencies of occurrence of the Basmalah’s four words.

  53. atom permalink
    December 21, 2010 12:15 PM

    What Is A “Gematrical Value”?
    When the Quran was revealed, 14 centuries ago, the numbers known today did not exist. A universal system was used where the letters of the Arabic, Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek alphabets were used as numerals. The number assigned to each letter is its “Gematrical Value.”

    Other Mathematical Properties of the Initialed Suras
    Fourteen Arabic letters, half the Arabic alphabet, participate in the formation of 14 different sets of Qur-anic Initials. By adding the gematrical value of each one of these letters, plus the number of suras which are prefixed with Quranic Initials (29), we obtain a total of 722, or 19x19x2.
    Additionally, if we add the total gematrical value of all 14 initials, plus the number of the first sura where the initial occurs, we get a grand total of 988, 19×52.

    If we add the number of occurrences of each of the 14 letters listed in Table 8 as an initial, plus the numbers of the suras where it occurs as an initial, the Grand Total comes to 2033, 19×107.

    If we add the total frequency of Quranic Initials, plus the total gematrical value of these letters in the whole sura. The Grand Total for all initialed suras is 1089479. This number, in excess of one million, is a multiple of 19 (1089479 = 19 x 57341). The slightest alteration or distortion destroys the system.

    WHY 19!
    As pointed out later in this Appendix, all God’s scriptures, not only the Quran, were mathematically coded with the number “19.” Even the universe at large bears this divine mark. The number 19 can be looked upon as the Almighty Creator’s signature on everything He created. The number “19” possesses unique mathematical properties. For example:
    [1] It is a prime number.

    [2] It encompasses the first numeral (1) and the last numeral (9), as if to proclaim God’s attribute in 57:3 as the “Alpha and the Omega.”

    [3] It looks the same in all languages of the world. Both components, 1 and 9, are the only numerals that look the same in all languages.

    The Lord our God is ONE! Therefore, you shall worship the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength. [Deuteronomy 6:4-5] [Mark 12:29] [Quran 12:163, 17:22-23]

    [4] It possesses many peculiar mathematical properties. For example, 19 is the sum of the first powers of 9 and 10, and the difference between the second powers of 9 and 10.

    We now understand that the universal coding of God’s creations with the number 19 rests in the fact that it is the gematrical value of the word “ONE” in all the scriptural languages — Aramaic, Hebrew, and Arabic.

    The number 19, therefore, proclaims the First Commandment in all the scriptures: that there is only ONE God.

    The Aramaic, Hebrew, and Arabic alphabets used to double as numerals in accordance with a universally established system. The Hebrew word for “ONE” is “VAHD” (pronounced V-AHAD). In Arabic, the word for “ONE” is “WAHD” (pronounced WAAHED).

    The Word “Quran”
    The word “Quran” occurs in the Quran 58 times, with one of them, in 10:15, referring to “another Quran.” This particular occurrence, therefore, must be excluded. Thus, the frequency of occurrence of “this Quran” in the Quran is 57, or 19×3.

  54. atom permalink
    December 21, 2010 11:51 AM

    Y. S. (Ya Seen)
    These two letters prefix Sura 36. The letter “Y” occurs in this sura 237 times, while the letter “S” (Seen) occurs 48 times. The total of both letters is 285, 19×15.

    H.M. (Ha Mim)
    Seven suras are prefixed with the letters “H“ and “M” Suras 40 through 46. The total occurrence of these two letters in the seven H.M.-initialed suras is 2147, or 19×113. Naturally, the alteration of a single letter “H” or “M” in any of the seven H.M.-initialed suras would have destroyed this intricate phenomenon.

    `A.S.Q. (`Ayn Seen Qaf)
    These initials constitute Verse 2 of Sura 42, and the total occurrence of these letters in this sura is 209, or 19×11. The letter “ `A” (`Ayn) occurs 98 times, the letter “S” (Seen) occurs 54 times, and the letter “Q” (Qaf) occurs 57 times.

    A.L.M. (Alef Laam Mim)
    The letters “A,” “L,” and “M” are the most frequently used letters in the Arabic language, and in the same order as we see in the Quranic Initials — “A,” then “L,” then “M.” These letters prefix six suras — 2, 3, 29, 30, 31, and 32 — and the total occurrence of the three letters in each of the six suras is a multiple of 19 [9899 (19x521), 5662 (19x 298), 1672 (19x88), 1254 (19x66), 817 (19x43), and 570 (19x30), respectively]. Thus, the total occurrence of the three letters in the six suras is 19874 (19x 1046), and the alteration of one of these letters destroys this phenomenon.

    A.L.R. (Alef Laam Ra)
    These initials are found in Suras 10, 11, 12, 14, and 15. The total occurrences of these letters in these suras are 2489 (19×131), 2489 (19×131), 2375 (19x 125), 1197 (19×63), and 912 (19×48), respectively.

    K.H.Y.`A.S. (Kaaf Ha Ya `Ayn Saad)
    This is the longest set of initials, consisting of five letters, and it occurs in one sura, Sura 19. The letter “K” in Sura 19 occurs 137 times, “H” occurs 175 times, “Y” occurs 343 times, “ `A” occurs 117 times, and “S” (Saad) occurs 26 times. Thus, the total occurrence of the five letters is 137+175+343+117+26 = 798 = 19×42.

    H., T.H. (Ta Ha), T.S. (Ta Seen), & T.S.M. (Ta Seen Mim)
    An intricate interlocking relationship links these overlapping Quranic Initials to produce a total that is also a multiple of 19. The initial “H.” is found in Suras 19 and 20. The initials “T.H.” prefix Sura 20. The initials “T.S.” are found in Sura 27, while the initials “T.S.M.” prefix its surrounding Suras 26 & 28.
    It should be noted at this time that the longer, more complex, interlocking and overlapping initials are found in the suras where uncommonly powerful miracles are narrated. For example, the virgin birth of Jesus is given in Sura 19, which is prefixed with the longest set of initials, K.H.Y.`A.S.

    Need more? Yes there is much more, it’s to be continued

  55. atom permalink
    December 21, 2010 11:39 AM

    Initial “N” (NuN in arabic)
    This initial is unique; it occurs in one sura, 68, and the name of the letter is spelled out as three letters — in the original text, and is therefore counted as two N’s. The total count of this letter in the N-initialed sura is 133, 19×7. The fact that “N” is the last Quranic Initial brings out a number of special observations.
    For example, the number of verses from the first Quranic Initial (A.L.M. of 2:1) to the last initial (N. of 68:1) is 5263, or 19×277.
    The word “God” (Allah) occurs 2641 (19×139) times between the first initial and the last initial. Since the total occurrence of the word “God” is 2698, it follows that its occurrence outside the initials “A.L.M.” of 2:1 on one side, and the initial “N” of 68:1 on the other side, is 57, 19×3.

    Initial “S” (Saad in arabic)
    This initial prefixes three suras, 7, 19, and 38, and the total occurrence of the letter “S” (Saad) in these three suras is 152, 19×8

    Historical Note
    The momentous discovery that “19” is the Quran’s common denominator became a reality in January 1974, coinciding with lunar month “Zul-Hijjah” 1393 A.H (after Hijrah or migration of the prophet from Mecca to Medina). The revelation of Quran started in 13 B.H. (Before Hijrah). This makes the number of years from the revelation of the Quran to the revelation of its miracle 1393 + 13 = 1406 = 19×74. As noted above, the unveiling of the Miracle took place in January 1974. The correlation between 19×74 lunar years and 1974 solar years could not escape notice. This is especially uncanny in view of the fact that the only time the number “19” is mentioned in the Quran is in Sura 74. Again these are may be coincidences you will say??

  56. atom permalink
    December 21, 2010 10:54 AM

    The Literary Mathematical Composition
    The Quran is characterized by a unique phenomenon never found in any other book; 29 suras are prefixed with 14 different sets of “Quranic Initials,” consisting of one to five letters per set. Fourteen letters, half the Arabic alphabet, participate in these initials. The significance of the Quranic initials remained a divinely guarded secret for 14 centuries.
    The Quran states in 10:20 and 25:4-6 that its miracle, i.e., proof of divine authorship, was destined to remain secret for a specific predetermined interim.

    The books of Quranic exegeses unanimously agreed that “no one knows the meaning or significance of the Quranic Initials A.L.M., or any other initials.” I decided to write the Quran into the computer, analyze the whole text, and see if there were any mathematical correlations among these Quranic initials.
    I used a time-share terminal, connected by telephone to a giant computer. To test my hypothesis, I decided to look at the single-lettered Quranic Initials — “Q” (Qaaf) of Suras 42 and 50, “S” (Saad) of Suras 7, 19, and 38, and “N” (Noon) of Sura 68.

    The Quranic Initial “Q” (Qaaf):
    The computer data showed that the text of the only Q-initialed suras, 42 and 50, contained the same number of Q’s, 57 and 57. That was the first hint that a deliberate mathematical system might exist in the Quran.
    Sura 50 is entitled “Q” prefixed with “Q” and the first verse reads, “Q, and the glorious Quran.” This indicated that “Q” stands for “Quran,” and the total number of Q’s in the two Q-initialed suras represents the Quran’s 114 suras (57+57 = 114 = 19×6). This idea was strengthened by the fact that “the Quran” occurs in the Quran 57 times.

    1. The frequency of occurrence of “Q” in Sura “Q” (No. 50) is 57, 19×3.

    2. The letter “Q” occurs in the other Q-initialed sura (No. 42) exactly the same number of times, 57.

    3. The total occurrence of the letter “Q” in the two Q- initialed suras is 114, which equals the number of suras in the Quran.

    4. “The Quran” is mentioned in the Quran 57 times.

    5. The description of the Quran as “Majid” (Glorious) is correlated with the frequency of occurrence of the letter “Q” in each of the Q-initialed suras. The word “Majid” has a gematrical value of 57.

    6. Sura 42 consists of 53 verses, and 42+53 is 95, or 19×5.

    7. Sura 50 consists of 45 verses, and 50+45 is also 95, 19×5.

    8. The number of Q’s in all verses numbered “19” throughout the Quran is 76, 19×4.

    Glimpses of the Quran’s mathematical composition began to emerge. For example, it was observed that the people who disbelieved in prophet “Lot” are mentioned in 50:13 and occur in the Quran 13 times — 7:80; 11:70, 74, 89; 21:74; 22:43; 26:160; 27:54, 56; 29:28; 38:13; 50:13; and 54:33. Consistently, they are referred to as “Qawm” (people) with the single exception of the Q-initialed Sura 50 where they are referred to as “Ikhwaan” (brothers of same tribe). Obviously, if the regular, Q-containing word “Qawm“ (people) were used, the count of the letter “Q” in Sura 50 would have become 58, and this whole phenomenon would have disappeared. With the recognized absolute accuracy of mathematics, the alteration of a single letter destroys the system.

    Another relevant example is the reference to Mecca in 3:96 as “Becca“ (old name of the city)! This strange spelling of the renowned city has puzzled Islamic scholars for many centuries. Although Mecca is mentioned in the Quran properly spelled in 48:24, the letter “M” is substituted with a “B” in 3:96. It turns out that Sura 3 is an M-initialed sura, and the count of the letter “M” would have deviated from the Quran’s code if “Becca” was spelled with an “M” in 3:96.

    More complexe to come, numbers with hundreds of digits are multiples of 19…
    I dare you to read everything and take the challenge if you still think it’s simple and humanly possible. read on

  57. atom permalink
    December 21, 2010 10:27 AM

    Legend:
    The word “Sura” in arabic means “chapter”.
    The word “Basmalah” refers to the statement: In the Name of Allah, the Most Gracious, Most Merciful. This statement opens each chapter (sura) of the Quran except Chapter 9. This statement happens to be numbered only in the first chapter and once again in chapter 27. All the remaining 112 basmalahs are unnumbered. You will see why. Please read on.

    The Quran is characterized by a unique phenomenon never found in any human authored book. Every element of the Quran is mathematically composed — the suras, the verses, the words, the number of certain letters, the number of words from the same root, the number and variety of divine names, the unique spelling of certain words, the absence or deliberate alteration of certain letters within certain words, and many other elements of the Quran besides its content. There are two major facets of the Quran’s mathematical system: (1) The mathematical literary composition, and (2) The mathematical structure involving the numbers of suras and verses. Because of this comprehensive mathematical coding, the slightest distortion of the Quran’s text or physical arrangement is immediately exposed.

    Simple to Understand Impossible to Imitate.
    For the first time in history we have a scripture with built-in proof of divine authorship — a superhuman mathematical composition.
    Nineteen (19) is the common denominator throughout the Quran’s mathematical system.
    This phenomenon alone suffices as incontrovertible proof that the Quran is God’s message to the world. No human being(s) could have kept track of 2698 occurrences of the word “Allah” and the numbers of verses where they occur. This is especially impossible in view of (1) the age of ignorance during which the Quran was revealed, and (2) the fact that the suras and verses were widely separated in time and place of revelation. The chronological order of revelation was vastly different from the final format. However, the Quran’s mathematical system is not limited to the word “Allah” it is extremely vast, extremely intricate, and totally comprehensive.

    The Simple Facts:
    Like the Quran itself, the Quran’s mathematical coding ranges from the very simple, to the very complex. The Simple Facts are those observations that can be ascertained without using any tools. The complex facts require the assistance of a big calculator or a computer. The following facts do not require any tools to be verified, but please remember they all refer to the original Arabic text:

    1. The first verse of every sura (chapter) known as “Basmalah” (bismillah al-rahman al-rahim) consists of 19 letters.

    2. The Quran consists of 114 suras, which is 19 x 6.

    3. The total number of verses in the Quran is 6346, or 19 x 334.
    [6234 numbered verses & 112 un-numbered verses (Basmalahs) 6234+112 = 6346] Note that 6+3+4+6= 19.

    4. The Basmalah occurs 114 times, despite its conspicuous absence from Sura 9 (it occurs twice in Sura 27) & 114= 19 x 6.

    5. From the missing Basmalah of Sura 9 to the extra Basmalah of Sura 27, there are precisely 19 suras.

    6. It follows that the total of the sura numbers from 9 to 27 (9+10+11+12+…+26+27) is 342, or 19 x 18.

    7. This total (342) also equals the number of words between the two Basmalahs of Sura 27, and 342 = 19 x 18.

    8. The famous first revelation (96:1-5) consists of 19 words.

    9. This 19-worded first revelation consists of 76 letters 19 x 4.

    10. Sura 96, first in the chronological sequence, consists of 19 verses.

    11. This first chronological sura is placed atop the last 19 suras.

    12. Sura 96 consists of 304 Arabic letters, and 304 equals 19 x 16.

    13. The last revelation (Sura 110) consists of 19 words.

    14. The first verse of the last revelation (110:1) consists of 19 letters.

    Now to understand the following, you need to know that some suras, start with some letters (after the basmalah) that don’t have any litteral meaning, just a composition of arabic letters called Quranic initials. They can be composed of 1 or more letters as you will see below.

    15. Fourteen (14) different Arabic letters, form 14 different sets of “Quranic Initials” (such as A.L.M. of 2:1), and prefix 29 suras. These numbers add up to 14+14+29=57= 19 x 3.

    16. The total of the 29 sura numbers where the Quranic Initials occur is suras (chapters: 2+3+7+…+50+68 = 822, and 822+14 (14 sets of initials) equals 836, or 19 x 44.

    17. Between the first initialed sura (Sura 2) and the last initialed sura (Sura 68) there are 38 un-initialed suras 19 x 2.

    18. Between the first and last initialed sura there are 19 sets of alternating “initialed” and “uninitialed” suras.

    19. The Quran mentions 30 different numbers: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 19, 20, 30, 40, 50, 60, 70, 80, 99, 100, 200, 300, 1000, 2000, 3000, 5000, 50,000, & 100,000. The sum of these numbers is 162146, which equals 19×8534.

    It’s getting more complexe, don’t give-up please, keep reading.

  58. atom permalink
    December 21, 2010 9:36 AM

    Great post J Orchard!
    Since you are a professor of computer science, I will challenge you to use your knowledge, get help and support from anyone and anything to compose a book mathematically coded and indexed, similarly to the following…it’s gonna be very long, but I will post from the simplest but nonetheless amazingly incredible to the most complexe and superhuman.
    After you read this, please tell me that this is pure fabrication or coincidence brought by an illiterate man in the desert of Arabia 1400 years ago in the Quran.

    - The statement of “seven heavens” is repeated 7 times. “The creation of the heavens (khalq as-samawat)” is also repeated 7 times.

    -The word “Day (yawm)” is repeated 365 times in singular form, while its plural and dual forms “days (ayyam and yawmayn)” together are repeated 30 times.

    - The number of repetitions of the word “month” (shahar) is 12.

    - The number of repetitions of the words “plant” and “tree” is the same: 26

    - The word “payment or reward” is repeated 117 times, while the expression “forgiveness” (mughfirah), which is one of the basic morals of the Qur’an, is repeated exactly twice that amount, 234 times.

    - When we count the word “Say,” we find it appears 332 times. We arrive at the same figure when we count the phrase “they said.”

    - The number of times the words, “worldly life” (dunya) and “hereafter” (akhira) are repeated is also the same: 115

    - The word “satan” (shaitan) is used in the Qur’an 88 times, as is the word “angels” (malaika).

    - The word faith (iman) (without genitive) is repeated 25 times throughout the Qur’an as is also the word infidelity (kufr).

    - The words “paradise” and “hell” are each repeated 77 times.

    - The number of times the words “Summer-hot” and “winter-cold” are repeated is the same: 5.

    -The words “wine” (khamr) and “intoxication” (saqara) are repeated in the Qur’an the same number of times: 6

    -The words “tongue” and “sermon” are both repeated 25 times.

    -The words “benefit” and “corrupt” both appear 50 times.

    -”Reward” (ajr) and “action” (fia’l) are both repeated 107 times.

    -”Love” (al-mahabbah) and “obedience” (al-ta’ah) also appear the same number of times: 83

    -The words “refuge” (maseer) and “for ever” (abadan) appear the same number of times in the Qur’an: 28.

    -”Sun” (shams) and “light” (nur) both appear 33 times in the Qur’an.

    -The words “trouble” and “peace” are both repeated 13 times in the Qur’an.

    -The words “man” and “woman” are also employed equally: 23 times.
    Will they not ponder the Qur’an? If it had been from other than Allah, they would have found many inconsistencies in it. (Qur’an, 4:82)
    The number of times the words “man” and “woman” are repeated in the Qur’an, 23, is at the same time that of the chromosomes from the ovule and spermatozoide in the formation of the human embryo. The total number of human chromosomes is 46; 23 each from the mother and father.

    -”Treachery” (khiyanah) is repeated 16 times, same for the word “foul” (khabith) 16.

    -”Human being” is used 65 times: which is the sum of the number of references to the stages of man’s creation is the same: look at the coincidence again!!
    Human being 65
    Soil or dust (turab) 17
    Drop of Sperm (nutfah) 12
    Embryo (‘alaq) 6
    A half formed lump of flesh (mudghah) 3
    Bone (‘idham) 15
    Flesh (lahm) 12
    TOTAL 65

    -The word prayers “salawat” appears 5 times in the Qur’an, and Allah has commanded man to perform the prayer (salat) 5 times a day.

    -The word “land” appears 13 times in the Qur’an and the word “sea” 32 times, giving a total of 45 references. Look at the “coincidence” as you may call it again: What is the proportion of Land and Sea on earth as established by modern science?
    Divide 13 by 45 = 28.88888888888%.
    Now divide 32 by 45 = 71.111111111111%.
    Extraordinarily, these figures represent the exact proportions of land and sea on the Earth today. Remember, this was revealed more than 1400 years ago.

    This was only a sneak peak of the amazing index of words found in the Quran. More complexe to come, stand by…

  59. J. Orchard permalink
    December 20, 2010 9:46 PM

    I was so impressed with atom’s cut-n-paste tirade from the Quran, I wrote a blog entry about it.
    http://intelligent-falling.blogspot.com/2010/12/mohammed-vs-jesus.html

  60. atom permalink
    December 20, 2010 1:00 PM

    To all atheists:
    Can anyone explain why science with all its advanced technological means and highly sophisticated machines and laboratories have never been able to create a living thing out of nothing? out of dust? out of water? or out of all of these combined? If you agree that we are created out of dust and water, then why is it that till this day, the highest advancements that scientists have been able to achieve in this regard is to compose 1 cell out of other cells (taking the DNA and other components from other cells) but they have never been able to give life to it.
    Well WHO does give life to living creatures? where does the “soul” come from? who created the highly complexe and extremely and perfectly ordered DNA chain? Can you admit that any machine, like a computer, a TV, an airplane, a space vessel can come to existence thanks to the laws of nature only? If the man doesn’t create and build them, will they come to creation by themselves? Obvisouly and logically not!! But why is it that when it comes to human beings, animals, vegetable kingdom, earth, cosmos, etc. you immediately and categorically deny that someone is behind their creation. When someone dies at an early age with no medical background, just a sudden death (i.e soccer players in the middle of a game), why doctors cannot revive or reanimate them? who decided that that heart has to stop beating? even if you use the defibrillator to stimulate the electrical function of the myocard, you’ll get to nothing. You know why? because his “hour” has come. Why don’t you use your common sense?
    Even if you don’t believe in the Quran or Bible or any other revelation, let me quote these verses from the Quran which is the “Word of Allah” the Supreme Creator of everything whether you like it or not:

    They put you (O Mohammed) questions about Ar-Ruh (the Spirit or the soul). Tell them: “The Spirit is at my Lord’s command and we are not given any knowledge of it but a little.” 17:85

    O mankind! Here is an example for your understanding, so listen to it carefully. Those deities whom you call besides Allah, cannot create a single fly, even if they all combined their forces, rather, if a fly snatches away anything from them they cannot even get it back; how feebleminded are the suppliants and how powerless are those whom they supplicate![73] They do not render to Allah the homage due to Him; in fact, Allah is the One Who is All-Powerful, All-Mighty.[74] 22:[73-74]

    They ask: “Why has a sign not been sent down to him (Mohammed) from his Lord?” Tell them: “Allah is surely able to send down a Sign; but most of them do not understand the wisdom behind it.”[37] If you really want to see the signs of Allah, just look at any animal that walks upon the earth and any bird that flies in the air; they too are communities like you. We have not left out anything from the Book in determining the courses of their lives. They all shall be gathered before their Lord.[38] Those who deny Our Revelations are deaf and dumb, living in many layers of darkness. Allah confounds whom He wills, and guides to the Right Way whom He pleases.[39] 6: [37-39]

    O mankind! If you doubt that there is life after death remember that We first created you from dust, then from a sperm, then from a leech-like mass, then from a morsel of flesh, partly formed and partly unformed, so that We may manifest to you Our power. We cause to remain in the womb whom We wish for an appointed term, and then We bring you forth as infants; then We nourish you so that you may reach your age of full strength. There are some of you who die young and some who live on to their abject old age when all that they once knew they know no more. You sometimes see the land dry and barren; but no sooner do We pour down rain upon it then it begins to stir and swell, putting forth every kind of beautiful growth in pairs.[5] This is because Allah is the Reality: it is He Who gives life to the dead and it is He Who has power over everything,[6] and this is a proof that the Hour of Doom is sure to come – there is no doubt about it; and that Allah will raise up those who are in the graves.[7]
    Yet there are others among people who wrangle about Allah, though they neither have knowledge nor guidance, nor an enlightening Book,[8] twisting things around in order to lead others astray from the Path of Allah – for such persons there is disgrace in this life, and on the Day of Judgment we shall make them taste the punishment of burning fire,[9] saying: “This is what you prepared and sent forth with your own hands.” Rest assured that Allah is not unjust to His worshippers.[10] 22:[5-10]

    Tell them: “Anyone who has gone astray, the Compassionate (Allah) prolongs his respite and extends an opportunity until they see about which they were warned; – be it a worldly scourge or the Hour of Doom – then they will realize whose is the worst dwelling and whose are the weak companions?[75] In fact, Allah increases in guidance those who seek guidance; everlasting are only the good deeds, which are the best in the sight of your Lord to earn you a better reward and yield you the best fruit?”[76]
    Have you noticed the words of that person who rejects Our Revelations yet boasts: “I shall always be given wealth and children.”[77] Has he gained knowledge of the Unseen or has he been awarded a contract by the Compassionate (Allah)?[78] By no means! We write down what he says and We will make his punishment long and terrible.[79] We will inherit all that he boasts of, and he will come back to Us all alone leaving all these things behind.[80] They have taken other deities for worship besides Allah, so that they should be a source of strength to them.[81] By no means! Those very deities will renounce their worship and turn against them.[82] 19:[66-82]

    Don’t you see that We have sent down to the unbelievers Satans who incite them against the Truth?[83] Therefore be not in haste against them, their days are numbered.[84] The Day will surely come when We will gather the righteous like honored guests before the Compassionate (Allah),[85] and drive the criminals to Hell like thirsty cattle are driven to water.[86] None shall have the power to intercede except the one who may receive the sanction of the Compassionate (Allah).[87]
    Those who say: “The Compassionate (God) has begotten a son,”[88] certainly preach such a monstrous falsehood,[89] that the very Heavens might crack, the earth might cleave asunder and the mountains might crumble to pieces[90] – at their ascribing a son to the Compassionate (God),[91] It is not befitting to the Compassionate (God) that He should beget a son.[92] There is none in the heavens and in the earth but must come to the Compassionate (Allah) in full submission.[93] He has a comprehensive knowledge and has kept strict count of all His creatures,[94] and every one of them will come to Him individually on the Day of Resurrection.19:[83-95]

    O mankind! Have fear of your Lord; the catastrophic quaking of the Hour of Doom will be terrible indeed.[1] On that Day you shall see that every nursing mother will forget her nursing-babe and every pregnant female will miscarry, and you will see people as if they are intoxicated, though they will not be drunk: such will be the horror of Allah’s chastisement.[2] Yet there are some among people, who in their ignorance, argue about Allah and follow every rebellious devil,[3] though they are doomed to seduce whoever takes them as their friends and lead him to the punishment of burning fire.[4] 22:[1-4]

    Those who deny Our revelations, We draw them step by step closer to destruction in ways that they do not realize,[182] and even though I grant them respite; My plan is surely effective.[183] Has it never occurred to them that their companion (Mohammed) is not a madman; he is merely a plain Warner.[184] Have they not pondered over the kingdom of the heavens and the earth and whatever Allah has created, and that maybe their hour of death has come closer? In what message after this would they then believe?[185] None can guide those whom Allah confounds and leaves them blundering about in their rebellious transgression.[186] They ask you about the Hour of Doom and when will it take place. Say: “Knowledge about it rests only with my Lord: He Himself will disclose it at the proper time. Heavy is its weight in the heavens and the earth. It will not come gradually but all of a sudden. They ask you as if you yourself were in search of it. Tell them: “The knowledge about it rests only with Allah though most people do not understand.”[187] Further tell them: “I have no power to acquire benefit or avert any harm from myself, only that happens which Allah wants.
    Had I possessed the knowledge of the unseen, I would have acquired many benefits to myself; and no harm would have touched me. I am no more than a Warner and bearer of good news for the true believers.”[188] 7:[182-188]

    We created man, We know the prompting of his soul, and We are closer to him than his jugular vein.[16] Besides this direct knowledge ,We have assigned to every one two scribes (guardian angels), the one seated on his right and the other on his left,[17] not a single word does he utter but there is a vigilant guardian ready to note it down.[18] When the agony of death will bring the truth before his eyes, they will say: “This is what you were trying to escape!”[19] And the Trumpet shall be blown; that will be the Day of which you were threatened![20] Each soul will come forth; with it there will be a an angel to drive and an angel to bear witness.[21] It will be said: “You were heedless of this, but now We have removed your veil, so your eyesight is sharp today!”[22] His companion will say: “Here is my testimony ready with me.”[23]
    The sentence will be: “Throw into hell every stubborn disbeliever,[24] every opponent of good, and every doubting transgressor[25] who set up other gods besides Allah. Throw him into severe punishment.”[26] His companion will say: “Our Lord! I did not mislead him. He himself had gone far astray.”[27] Allah will say: “Do not dispute with each other in My presence. I gave you warning beforehand.[28] My words cannot be changed, nor am I unjust to My servants.”[29] 50:[16-29]

    On that Day, We shall ask the hell: “Are you full?” And the hell will answer: “Are there any more?”[30] Paradise shall be brought close to the righteous, which will no more be a distant thing,[31] and it will be said: “Here is what you were promised. It is for every penitent faithful person,[32] who feared the Compassionate (Allah) without seeing Him and will come before Him with a devoted heart.”[33] Allah will say: “Enter it in peace; this is the Day of Eternal Life!”[34] There they shall have all that they wish, and We shall have yet more to give.[35] 50:[30-35]

    How many generations, far stronger in power, have We destroyed before them! They searched the entire land: but could they find any refuge?[36] Surely in this there is a lesson for every person who has a heart, and can hear and witness.[37] We created the heavens and the earth and all that lies between them in six periods, and no fatigue touched Us.[38] Therefore, O Prophet, bear with them in patience whatever they say, and keep on glorifying your Lord before sunrise and before sunset.[39] And glorify Him during a part of the night and after the prostration (prayers).[40] And listen! The Day when the Caller will call out from a place quite near,[41] the Day when the people will hear the mighty blast in reality; that will be the Day of coming forth (the dead will rise from their graves).[42] Surely it is We Who give life and death; and to Us shall all return,[43] on that Day when the earth shall split asunder and the people shall be rushing out of it; that gathering them together shall be quite easy for Us.[44] We know very well what these unbelievers say. You (O Muhammad) are not there to compel them to believe. So admonish with this Qur’an every such person who fears My warning.[45] 50:[36-45].

    Common sense please, only common sense. If you still can’t believe, then read again above to know what happened to your heart and what will happen to you after you die…

  61. Evil-Illusionist permalink
    December 20, 2010 10:06 AM

    @Bob – “We have faith that love does exist in this world. But who can prove it through scientific means. evolution, the age of the earth, the laws of physics and the uniformity of nature are assumptions we have made. People who are milllions of times smarter then you guys have beleived in a higher power.”

    Lots of smart guys belived in a highter power – and lots of smart people still do. But ALL of them do it irrationally and without evidence and against logic. That doesn’t mean that they arn’t smart – or that they are irrational – just that they are irrational regarding that subject (as am I, regarding my daughter ( – she’s a genius;) ) .
    and now – your claims – Love, can be shown – not the exact experience of the fealing, but the emotion can be located in the brain. Evolution can be proven (ven though you religious fanatics refuse to recognise anything on that issue).
    The laws of physics are not some irrational, random claims, that we just happen to agree on. The theories are models, and thereby a representation of reality, but just like a model of a car – it can never BE reality. It’s an aproximation. but just because our scientific theories have some flaws doesn’t mean that you can just ignore them all together.

    Just because science don’t know everything
    doesn’t mean that we can’t know anything
    and that we therefore can belive anything.
    How the universe works isn’t up to faith. It doesn’t matter how you feal.

    “Concepts which have been proved to be useful in ordering things easily acquire such an authority over us that we forget their human origin and accept them as invariable.”
    Albert Einstein

    I like that quote – but for the opposite reason. Religion is man made and holds most of the world in a tight grip – claiming that we can’t live without it.
    I don’t belive i your god – along with all the other gods that people have belived in at some point or another.
    You are even almost an atheist.
    You probably don’t belive in the 2869 other gods out there.

    When you figure out why you come to the conclusion that there’s no Thor, Ra, Ba’al, Xeny, Osiris, Odin, Mars, Zeus or Maduk and apply the same logic to your own religion – you might get rid of that last illusion.

  62. greame permalink
    December 19, 2010 12:04 PM

    “what do u think will happen im actually really intrested in ur perspective on death.”

    My perspective, and I’m sure the perspective of many non believers is this:

    You die. You’re dead.

    Simple right? Consciousness is merely what the brain does. Once you die your brain begins to decompose, (like everything that dies) and your consciousness stops. That’s it.

  63. greame permalink
    December 19, 2010 11:59 AM

    “I know people like you their just afraid of beleiving a higher power because their scared of death”

    HA!
    Really? REALLY??? That’s ludicrous!! YOU are the ones who are clinging to an invisible father because you can’t face the fact that once you die, that’s it. If your statement is true, why do RELIGIONS claim that there is an afterlife, when us non-believers have long since come to terms with the fact that our life here is all we have. Why you would want to spend THIS life, that you have, and that you are living right now, preparing for one you don’t even know will be there when you die?

  64. J. Orchard permalink
    December 18, 2010 10:00 AM

    @ Bob

    >>> even if we did find something you’ll probaly make a new excuse as to why its not real. I know people like you their just afraid of beleiving a higher power

    It’s not about convincing ME. It’s about convincing the scientific community. Scientists really don’t care where the ideas come from; they’re just interested in finding out more about how the universe works. I’d include myself in that group. So, pull out those Quran verses, and make new discoveries that we all can share an enjoy.

    Can you really say you know me? I don’t think so.

    But to answer your question… I expect that after you die, your consciousness ceases. Afterlife is, in my opinion, just human wishful thinking. We should try to make the most of THIS life.

  65. Bob permalink
    December 18, 2010 3:00 AM

    hellllllllllllllllllllllllllllooooooooooooooooo J orchard even if we did find something you’ll probaly make a new excuse as to why its not real. I know people like you their just afraid of beleiving a higher power because their scared of death. Do u actually think tht ur mind will disapear once u die what do u think will happen im actually really intrested in ur perspective on death.

  66. Bob permalink
    December 18, 2010 2:52 AM

    Evil-Illusionist: you talk about an issue that is far beyond the minds of men. If your suggecting that faith is an illusinary thing that has no real value then ur sujesting all of man kind is a lunatic. Science is based on faith. Their are several assumptions scientist make because they have faith that their answers may be right. We have faith that love does exist in this world. But who can prove it through scientific means. evolution, the age of the earth, the laws of physics and the uniformity of nature are assumptions we have made. People who are milllions of times smarter then you guys have beleived in a higher power. You guys are just stuborn people who just like to argue over the internet ignorently. Reading the comments i can see that you guys just cant shutup even when ur proven wrong you just start a new topic as if ur the most bored people on the planet. Like seriously you atheists unless ur a scientist like a top scientist then dont talk because you dont even know what ur talking aout. Like i have an atheist friend who i showed this page to and he thought you guys wer so lame anf funny cuz like parrots you guys she repte the stupid nonsense over and over again without having solid proof ur selves and then u ask others to bring you proof if they do ur just gonna either change the topic or make a random thing up and use it against them. Lol u athiests are nuts!
    “Concepts which have been proved to be useful in ordering things easily acquire such an authority over us that we forget their human origin and accept them as invariable.” Albert Einstein

  67. Jeff Orchard permalink
    December 16, 2010 10:18 AM

    @ adam

    And that stuff about going to hellfire after “Doomsday”… that doesn’t scare me one bit. It’s written in the Quran, a book that all evidence suggests was written by a human. I’ll form my own opinions about life-after-death, rather than trust your book.

  68. Jeff Orchard permalink
    December 16, 2010 10:12 AM

    @adam

    Read carefully. Forget about the past. I’m asking about the future. Show me the verses in the Quran that WILL LEAD to great scientific discoveries. That is, things that are not discovered yet (as of right now).

    Why do I pose the challenge this way? Because when you start with the answer, it’s easy to look back and find verses that are consistent with it. It is a completely different thing to start with the verses, and develop a scientific theory from them.

    For example, you quoted the verse about God splitting the skies and earth, and said that it predicted the big-bang theory. But you started with knowledge of the big-bang theory, and then found the verse to support it. What if today the leading cosmologists discovered that a big bang is not a good description, but instead the universe began like a piece of paper ripping in half. That’s a very different scientific theory, and yet the vague statement “the skies and the earth were once one mass, then We split them asunder” fits equally well (or better).

    The point is that no one would have read that verse and concluded all the details of the big bang theory; the verse only makes sense after you’ve heard the big-bang theory. So, your claim that the Quran contains undiscovered scientific knowledge is currently based on post-hoc rationalization… starting with the answer, and then fishing through the Quran looking for supporting statements. The way to refute that designation is to do as I suggested, and develop NEW scientific theories out of the Quran.

    Good luck.

  69. atom permalink
    December 15, 2010 9:04 PM

    @Jeff Orchard
    If you were an adult 50 years ago, you would have witnessed many scientific discoveries that were already mentioned in the Quran. But it doesn’t always work like that, many verses were correctly translated and understood by scholars and scientists after the scientific discovery took place. Then some scientists, after knowing that this was already in the Quran, they would analyze it and sekk more details in the Quran if the matter was described more in details, like for example the case of the human embryo. Watch some videos below, they explain what I’m saying. Now, if you’re believing in God is depends on what you said, who knows…you may not live long enough to witness another discovery, unless you can rewind the time and go back to the 50′s….

    Quran Ch 2 v. 31-32
    Those people are indeed lost who deny that they will ever meet Allah. When the hour of Doomsday will overtake them all of a sudden, they will exclaim: “Alas! How negligent we have been about this Hour.” They will be carrying the burden of their sins on their backs; and evil indeed are the burdens that they carry!(31) The life of this world is nothing but play and amusement, but the life of the Hereafter will be better for those who are righteous. Will you not use your common sense?(32)

  70. Jeff Orchard permalink
    December 13, 2010 12:08 PM

    @commonsense:

    You said,

    >> “Have not the unbelievers ever considered that the skies and the earth were once one mass, then We split them asunder? And We have created every living thing from water. Will they still not believe?” [Quran 21:30]

    >> This was the verse describing the skies and the earth that were joined together and God split them asunder = The Big Bang Theory. Nobel prize of Physics in the 1960-1970′s. This was revealed in the 7th century.

    I believe you were referring to my comment (thanks for that). You point out a great example of post-hoc rationalization. The text “splitting the skies and earth” is far too vague to suggest big-bang theory to me. It could just as easily be interpreted as our universe existing inside a huge egg-shell. It’s the same trick that con-artists use when doing a cold reading. They make a few vague statements, and the gullible believer fills in all the details.

    So, you misunderstood my point. What I’m looking for is a scientific prediction in the Quran that HAS NOT YET BEEN DISCOVERED BY SCIENTISTS. If the Quran really does contain all sorts of amazing scientific knowledge, then you should have access to scientific theories that would be a slam-dunk for publication in the best peer-reviewed journals. Go for it!

  71. Brian Ritter permalink
    December 13, 2010 2:54 AM

    “I don’t expect the world to think or work the way I do, it’s just that I hate it when people talk about things they don’t know or throw some judgments without knowing the real facts.
    Making a self enquiry, research is the least anyone can do especially when the topic is very important.”

    Oh the irony of it.
    I don’t need to see god or Allah face to face – I just need to be shown that it’s highly probable that he exist. Sadly though, I’ve been shown that it’s highly improbable that there’s any kind of supernatural beings like the judeo/christian/muslim god.
    Quoting anchient religious text doesn’t change that.

  72. atom permalink
    December 12, 2010 5:16 PM

    I don’t expect the world to think or work the way I do, it’s just that I hate it when people talk about things they don’t know or throw some judgments without knowing the real facts.
    Making a self enquiry, research is the least anyone can do especially when the topic is very important.
    If an atheist is atheist only because it suits him and is not open to accept any proof other than seeing God face to face in order to believe, then no atheist will never accept His existence even if you show irrefutable proofs. So why bother… But I have seen many atheists accept faith because they really and sincerely wanted to find the truth and when clear evidence was in front of them, they didn’t reject it. Someone below mentioned lots of scientific evidences that would blow anyone’s mind if reason and logic are applied. But when people are blind and their hearts are hardened by the Almighty, there’s nothing any human being can do to uncover their eyes and their minds, too late and too bad for them.

    Koran Chapter 2 Verses 212-213
    The life of this world is charming to those who are unbelievers and they mock at those who believe, but they forget that those who fear Allah will rank above them on the Day of Resurrection; Allah gives sustenance without measure to whom He wants.(212)
    Mankind was one nation having one religion. Later when people invented other religions, Allah appointed Prophets as bearers of good news and warnings; and revealed to them the Book with the True Guidance to settle the matters of dispute between mankind. But the very people to whom it was given, started disputes after the clear arguments had come to them, because of rivalry between one another. Allah has guided the believers by His will to the truth in those matters in which they had differences. Allah guides whom He pleases towards the Right Way.(213)

    All those who have read my posts and the ones below showing clear evidence, will have no excuse on the day of judgment, because clear evidence and invitation to believe in Allah has been shown.

  73. Don't stone me bro! permalink
    December 12, 2010 2:45 PM

    It’s almost as if some people are unable to read the bloody thread before spouting their piously servile tripe.

  74. Evil-Illusionist permalink
    December 12, 2010 1:10 PM

    Atom – Oh dear! I don’t know where to start. The world doesn’t correspond to the way your mind works, but working the way it does, you’ll probably never notice.

    “Sometimes people don’t want to hear the truth because they don’t want their illusions destroyed.”

    “A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything.”
    — Friedrich Nietzsche

  75. atom permalink
    December 12, 2010 7:39 AM

  76. atom permalink
    December 12, 2010 7:27 AM

    When you take words and phrases out of context or twist them, you can make a text say whatever you want it to say, you just need to play with the words, check this out:

    Now to respond to Gream about atoms in the Koran: You are playing with words and you don’t know what the Koran says actually. It doesn’t claim that the atom is the smallest thing, it actually says that there is something smaller than atoms, check this out:

    From Chapter 34:
    Praise be to Allah to Whom belongs all that is in the heavens and the earth! To Him be praise in the hereafter. He is the Wise, the Aware.(1) He has the knowledge of all that goes into the earth and that which comes out of it; and all that comes down from heaven and that ascends to it. He is the Merciful, the Forgiving.(2) The unbelievers say: “The Hour of Doom will never come to us.” Tell them: “Nay! By my Lord, the Knower of the unseen, it shall certainly come upon you. Nothing, even equal an atom, in the heavens or the earth is hidden from Him; nor there is anything smaller or greater than that, but is recorded in the Clear Book.(3) The Hour is going to come and the Day of Judgement shall be established, to reward those who have believed and done good deeds; it is them for whom there is forgiveness and an honorable sustenance.”(4) As for those who strive to discredit Our revelations, there will be a humiliating painful punishment.(5)
    Those to whom knowledge has been given can see that the revelations sent down to you from your Lord are the Truth and it guides to the Way of the Almighty, the Praise Worthy.(6) The unbelievers say to the people: “Shall we point out to you a man who claims that when your body will disintegrate and crumble into dust you shall be raised to life again?(7) Has he forged a lie against Allah or is he mad?” Nay! In fact those who do not believe in the Hereafter are doomed, for they are in gross error.(8) Do they not see the sky and the earth that surrounds them from front and from behind? If We want, We can cave in the earth to swallow them up or let the fragments of the sky fall upon them. Surely there is a sign in this for every devotee that turns to Allah in repentance.(9)

    So please, if you want to say something about Koran, you have to read it with care. All scientists, with no exception, agree with everything that is in the Koran about science. Remember, it’s not a book of science though, it’s a book of SIGNS. It proves itself to be the true and authentic word of Allah and the reason why many verses are related to science and describe so many phenomenons that had to be discovered centuries later, is to proof that this book is truth and that it’s valid for all times. You only need to read it, what do you have to loose if you read it and search it with care. So many scientists in various fields acknowledge that it gives precise information about things that were to be found in recent times and that Muhammad had no means to know those things if not from the Creator Himself. At his time, he was not given any miracles like previous prophets, he didn’t raise the dead, he didn’t heal the blinds or lepers or anything else. His miracle was and still is the Koran.
    Open your mind and search it, you just have to pray and say: God if you exist, please show me the true path, then start your search. If you have prejudices, put them aside. If some people told you something you don’t like about it, then search for those things by yourself, don’t take others’ statements or judgments for the truth. That’s the best advice I can give. Peace be upon you and good search!

  77. Brian Ritter permalink
    December 12, 2010 5:54 AM

    “So unless you can give evidence that it doesn’t exist, you can’t disprove it”

    You can’t disprove anything. You can’t disprove that I can fly.

    And specially because you guys kkep changing the definition. Theres no clear statement to what this god-fellow is and a clearly defined set of attributes that you can target for observation, refutation or falsification.

    But then agian – the burden of proof is on you, – just like it would be on me, if I claim to be able to fly.
    You make a claim about the existence of something, santa, god, allah, zeus or unichorns – it isn’t our job to disprove it – that’s not how it works.

    Don’t belive me? Disprove Santa or greame’s pet dragon.
    Or I can just invent a supergod, Mario, who created Allah, Yahweh, Ba’al, Zeus and all the others. Prove me wrong!

  78. greame permalink
    December 11, 2010 7:41 PM

    “Well, if you’re all about no limitations and stuff, then why are you shutting down the subject so quickly? No evidence, no God. ^o). Seems a little immature to me. So many people believe in this. So unless you can give evidence that it doesn’t exist, you can’t disprove it”

    It’s a little like my pet dragon that I keep in my garage. I said to a friend the other day, I have a dragon living in garage, and he was so excited we went strait to my house, and I opened up the garage, and all we could see were my leafblower, a few bags of waste, some old paint cans and a rake. My friend said “Where’s the dragon?” and I said, “Oh, she’s right here”. I wave vaguely, “I didn’t mention, she’s invisible.” So my friend says, “Okay, lets spread some flour or sand on the floor of the garage so we’ll be able to see the dragons footprints”. I say, “That’s a good idea, but the dragon is floating on air and won’t produce any footprints.” So my friend says “Okay, lets use an infrared scanner to see the dragon blowing out invisible fire”, and I say, “Thats a good idea, but the fire is heatless and won’t show up on the scanner.” My friend says “Okay, lets spray paint the dragon, and make her visible!” He’s sure he has me this time, but I say, “She’s an incorporeal dragon and the paint won’t stick.” And so on. I counter every physical test my friend propose with a special explanation of why it won’t work. So what do you think? Is there actually a dragon in my garage?

    *Thanks for the analogy Carl.

  79. greame permalink
    December 11, 2010 7:05 PM

    “it talks about the atom and how it is the smallest thing and that everything is made up of atoms”

    Sorry bud, atoms are not the smallest. Protons, electrons, neutrons make up the atom. In turn those particles are made up of quarks. So the korans predictions that atoms are the smallest is evidence that it is wrong.

  80. Brian Ritter permalink
    December 11, 2010 3:31 AM

    I just read the debate.
    Summary: My unichorn is stronger than you minotaur!
    People arguing over who’s bloodthirsty imaginary friend is more mercifull.

    And the funny thing is that both have evolved from Judaism and therefore both based on the old testament. Same imaginary friend but different interpretation and therefore: the other one must be EVIL!

    It’s like 3rd grades fighting using sophisticated words they don’t really understand.

  81. December 10, 2010 10:57 PM

    I’m glad. You made it very clear that you were not willing to engage in a free debate, but insisted upon making bare assertions about conspiracy theories.

    Hope you find what you’re looking for.

  82. December 10, 2010 10:05 PM

    Sorry, but you just ridiculed even more yourself and Christians overall.
    You provide no clear evidence at all, only conjecture and you twist facts.

    This was my last comment on this website.

  83. Allahu Ackbar says, "It's a trap!" permalink
    December 10, 2010 5:50 PM

    >>>>>>No Muslim is a Muslim if he doesn’t believe in Jesus Christ peace be upon him

    Believing in Jesus Christ, according to Jesus Christ, means believing He died for your sins and rose from the grave 3 days later. Do muslims believe that? I daresay they insist exactly the opposite, and so they do not believe in Jesus Christ, and are being dishonest when they claim as much.

    >>>>>>There is not a single unequivocal statement in the whole Bible where Jesus peace be upon him claims that he IS God or where he said worship me

    “I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM,” at which the Jews picked up stones to stone Him, why? They thought He was claiming to be God, which He was.

    He forgave lots of people’s sins, and only God can forgive sins.

    He said, “I and my Father are One.” the Jews again tried to stone Him here, saying, “you, a mere man, claim to be God!”

    Those are just a few examples. Yes, they are in the Bible. Do you deny this?

    >>>>>If he was God, then there would be numerous passages in the Bible clearly and unequivocally stating that

    There are numerous passages in the OT, NT, and from Jesus’ own lips saying as much. You must be very good at denial in order to…deny…this.

    >>>>>Even in the Bible there is not a Chapter named Mary. In the Quran there is a chapter named Mary peace be upon her

    Mary wasn’t special in and of her own self. People become important because God blesses them, not because they show God that they’re worthy.

    >>>>>> If you had watched those videos you would have understood

    You want me to waste several hours of my time? It’s not like you linked me to a 2 minute video.

    >>>>Tell me how Satan could invite people to believe in Only One God -the Creator -, to believe in the day of judgment, in his messengers, his books, his angels…and commands us to continuously spend in charity out of our wealth which he has provided to us.

    Can Satan only tell lies, or can he tell the truth sometimes? Think about it. The only lie he needs to tell is the lie that Jesus Christ is not God and the only way to heaven (John 14:6). Aside from that, he can tell you to be as good a person as any Christian–however, in reading the Qur’an, it’s clear that he couldn’t help himself in many cases where he sponsored violence, brutality, injustice and genocide.

    >>>>>The prayer is for our own sake. It helps people remember God at least 5 times a day and it prevents us from committing evil between each prayer as much as possible

    But if your prayer to ‘god’ is not the real God, then you’re pretty much without hope.

    >>>>>Again, you don’t know what you’re talking about. Tell me, what’s the original language of the Old testament? Hebrew isnt’it? And the new testament? Aramaic isn’t it? Where are the original manuscripts of the new testament? Why the most ancient manuscripts that could be found are in Greek?

    No, the New Testament is predominantly written in Koine Greek.

    >>>>>Do you read arabic? If no, then how can you judge?

    I take the witness of the prominent Muslim Scholars, such as
    Imam Nawawi
    Sahih Muslim
    Ibn Ishaq
    Tabari
    Sahih Bukhari
    Ibn Kathir
    Baidawi
    Ibn Sa’d
    Yusuf Ali
    Al-Jalalein

    The four “rightly guided” caliphs:
    Abu Bakr
    Umar
    Uthman
    Ali

    These are prominent and well-respected muslim scholars from all times in history; do you not trust them? I simply listened to what they had to say on the matter, from their own pens.

    >>>>>>Wow. I can’t believe you base your beliefs faith according to what is more impressive

    I can’t believe you think God would make the claim that if nobody could write something as eloquent as the Qur’an, that that would prove His existence.

    This claim is even more hilarious considering that this has been done repeatedly throughout history. The Qur’an is certainly not very eloquent or “beautiful.”

    >>>>>The Bible never says that Jesus Christ peace be upon him died and was resurrected

    Please direct me to this “Bible” that you’re reading, because each of the 4 Gospels of Mark, Matthew, John and Luke state unequivocally that Jesus died on the cross and rose from the grave 3 days later. Do you deny that they state this? Here’s just one of them: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+28&version=NIV

    >>>>>You faith is based on this so I don’t expect you to search this or to believe it even if clear evidence is shown to you from your own Bible.

    Your claim is pretty basic:
    1. Jesus didn’t rise from the grave because the Bible doesn’t say so.
    2. The Bible does say so.
    3. Your claim is false. Have you EVER read the Bible?

    >>>>>>Produce your proof that God did write the Bible

    Let’s come up with a test. I’ll ask you what you expect to see in order for you to be convinced.
    What would you have to see, in either the Qur’an or the Bible, to demonstrate that one of them is the Word of God?

    >>>>>Point out a single discrepancy or contradiction or error, within its context. Produce your proof if you are right in your claim.

    Do you have any extra-Quranic evidence that Abraham made a pilgrimage to Medina (I think that’s the claim I’ve heard made by muslims), despite the fact that the city didn’t exist at that point in time.

    >>>>>Well, again you don’t understand me. I believe in the BBT but it is not a coincidence, it is God’s creation and he is the originator of the Big Bang.

    But there’s severely lacking evidence for the BBT, so if the BBT can be disproven, then that’ll disprove Islam, according to you. I’m just pointing out that, like the blood clot, this is a poor argument to insist supports your belief.

    >>>>What mockery is this about God, The Greatest, The Creator, our Lord! Can you allow someone to speak about God this way?

    A song of praise? I really don’t see what point you’re trying to make…

    >>>>>One says Moses peace be upon him spoke to God face to face, so he saw him…and the other said “My face shall not be seen”

    http://www.gotquestions.org/seen-God.html
    The Moses reference is talking about seeing God in all His glory.

    >>>>>The many incest cases attributed to the prophets of God that the Bible mentions is another inconsistency that the logic and human nature cannot accept.

    Why not?

    >>>>>Do you really believe that the best people and the best examples who lived on the face of this earth (the prophets and messengers of God) have committed incest? for example Lot and Abraham (peace be upon them)?

    Do you not realize that we are ALL sinners? Romans: “For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.”

    The fact that the Bible reports the bad along with the good supports the notion that it’s not trying to cover anything up, but accurately portraying the truth of what really happened. Jesus Christ teaches us that even the worst among sinners can become righteous, but this is not of our OWN doing, but because of God’s grace. Such it is with the patriarchs, prophets, judges and kings of old.

    >>>>This is absolutely immoral to attribute such things to a prophet of God. What teachings do you take from this? Does it mean that if someone has no son, only daughter(s), he can commit incest to preserve lineage?

    What makes you think that a historical narrative is no different from an authoritative command? The passage is describing what happened, not mandating that it be done. Duh, it’s immoral, but the Bible never says that it’s condoned. Surely people can disobey God’s commands. Otherwise, what need would we have of repentance and salvation?

    >>>>>Now Samson went to Gaza and saw a harlot there, and went in to her.
    Does it mean that prostitution is fine in your beliefs? When you go to a city and find a prostitute you can use her services?

    No, it means that Samson slept with a prostitute. That’s all it means. Seriously.

    >>>>>>‘Oh rainbow is a sign of Almighty God, never to submerge the world by flood again.’ But today we know very well, that rainbow is due to the refraction of sunlight, with rain or mist. Surely there must have been thousands of rainbows before the time of Noah, peace be upon him.

    Not if there wasn’t rain or mist. Cha-ching.

    >>>>>What about the 2 different genealogies of Jesus peace be upon him found in the Bible? Which one is right?

    Both of them. One is through Joseph, the other through Mary.

    >>>>>I don’t expect you to answer or explain anything, and sincerely I am no more interested

    I know. People rarely list so many ‘objections’ if they are truly interested in hearing the answers. I only answered the ones I felt like answering, for this reason.

    It’s a shame you’ve hardened your heart and closed your eyes.

    If you’re interested in discovering why the Bible is not corrupted as you would like to believe, there are numerous resources online. You only have to look.

  84. Arthur permalink
    December 10, 2010 5:30 PM

    Well I gueess hes embaressing the crsitians

  85. December 10, 2010 3:53 PM

    From the Quran:

    Allah did in fact make a covenant with the Children of Israel and appointed twelve chieftains from among them and said: “I am with you; if you establish Salah (prayers) pay Zakah (charity), believe in My Messengers, support them and give a generous loan to Allah (spend in charity), I will certainly forgive you your sins and admit you to gardens beneath which rivers flow. However, if any one of you, after this, violates this covenant, he will indeed go astray from the Right Way.”[12] Even after that, they broke their covenant; as a result, We laid on them Our curse and hardened their hearts. They tampered with words out of their context and neglected much of what they were enjoined. You will always find most of them deceitful except for a few of them. Yet forgive them and overlook their misdeeds. Allah loves those who are kind to others.[13] 5:[12-13]
    Likewise, We also made a covenant with those who call themselves Christians, but they too have neglected much of what they were enjoined. As a result, We stirred among them enmity and hatred, which will last till the Day of Resurrection and soon Allah will inform them all of what they have done.[14] O people of the Book (Jews and Christians)! Now Our Messenger has come to you to reveal much of what you have concealed from the Holy Books and to pass over much which is no longer necessary. There has come to you from Allah a new Light and a clear Book,[15] with which Allah will guide to the ways of peace all those who seek His good pleasure and bring them out of the depth of darkness into the light of His grace and guide them to the Right Way.[16] 5:[14-16]

    If you only read and consider the Quran with care…

  86. Chris permalink
    December 10, 2010 3:29 PM

    Arthur, Erik is a Christian, thank god.

  87. Arthur permalink
    December 10, 2010 2:31 PM

    Erik Walker:
    I am an atheist, but holy cow Erik walker you made us look like idiots. Common sense speaks in a respectful, intelligent, and knowledgeable manner but you? I think your the one who should try to find “real” evidence to support your claims because your just embarrassing the whole atheist community. You deny the things people say by stating personal issues and twisted facts. Please just don’t even comment anymore. Seriously!

  88. December 10, 2010 12:05 PM

    @ Erik Walker

    Well, if you don’t want to read with care, no one can convince you of anything even if it’s proven by A+B.

    >>>>In case you’re not aware of the History, the Bible was available in that region at that time. It had been dispersed throughout the world for a good 500 years or so before the Qur’an was written, and very likely influenced it.

    Again, please re-read my post with care. The prophets, including Jesus Peace be upon him, came all with the same message, sent by the same God. Allah has sent his messengers to their people, some of them were given holy books, others not. The only ones that were named in the Quran were: Psalms of David, Torah of Moses, Injeel (Gospel) of Jesus and Quran of Muhammad peace and blessings of Allah be upon them all. All prophets and messengers since the beginning of mankind, came with the same message: There is only One God worthy of worship, the Creator of the Universe.

    Islam is the only religion on the face of the earth that makes it an article of faith to believe in all prophets and messengers of God including Jesus peace be upon him and all the books including the Gospel that was given to Jesus peace be upon him. No Muslim is a Muslim if he doesn’t believe in Jesus Christ peace be upon him. But we don’t believe he is God or he is the “Begotten” Son of God. We believe in his miraculous “virgin” birth, we believe that he raised the dead and healed those born blind and the lepers by God’s command. The Quran glorifies Jesus Christ and his Mother Mary peace be upon them both. The Quran attributes more miracles to Jesus Christ peace be upon him than the Bible itself. He spoke to people as a new born to defend his mother, he was able to make with the clay the forms of birds and then gave them life by God’s command. He was able to tell people what they ate and what they stored in their houses by God’s command. But your beliefs are the teachings of the church. There is not a single unequivocal statement in the whole Bible where Jesus peace be upon him claims that he IS God or where he said worship me. If he was God, then there would be numerous passages in the Bible clearly and unequivocally stating that. You know why? because it is of an utmost importance to know your Lord and how you should worship him.
    Even in the Bible there is not a Chapter named Mary. In the Quran there is a chapter named Mary peace be upon her. To say the high rank and glorification that Islam and the Quran gives her. Nowhere in the Quran you will find anything about Muhammad’s family, his mother, his sons, his daughter or even his genealogy. One would ask, how come that an arab would glorify Mary and her son who were both Jews knowing what were the relations between the Jews and Arabs at that time?

    >>>>>A human zygote has no hemoglobin in it at all. It does not even begin to contain blood until it develops blood vessels and begins to absorb those nutrients from the mother’s system. Thus, man does not develop from a blood clot, and the Qur’an is in grave error.

    I am arab and read arabic. The translation of the passage in Chapter 96 to which you are referring about the blood clot has been corrected since the translation of Yusuf Ali (who was not a scientist). The word blood or clot doesn’t exist in the original arabic text. More accurate translations of the original arabic text are available and the arabic word used is “alak” which means something that clings, a leech-like mass. This describes perfectly the human embryo since the beginning. If you had watched those videos you would have understood. If you are more knowledgable than all those great and renoun scientists, specialists in cytology and embryology, then please organize a debate, a conference or a talk with some of them or one of them. I challenge you to do it. I challenge you also to contact Dr Zakir Naik and meet him. Myself being a medical doctor, I can fully understand their language and the Quran is in perfect harmony with the modern science in this field. If you can do that, I would love to attend the meeting.

    >>>>>I daresay since its author is Satan, a fallen angel, who does not possess complete knowledge, but hates humanity, there is no room for doubt about its intent–much less when it is explicitly stated.

    With all due respect, you don’t know what you are talking about. Tell me how Satan could invite people to believe in Only One God -the Creator -, to believe in the day of judgment, in his messengers, his books, his angels…and commands us to continuously spend in charity out of our wealth which he has provided to us. To believe in God who has ordered us to be kind to our parents and to love to others what we love to ourselves, to pray 5 times a day to God. Remember, Allah doesn’t need our prayers since he is Self sufficient and he is the Sustainer. The prayer is for our own sake. It helps people remember God at least 5 times a day and it prevents us from committing evil between each prayer as much as possible. It provides the praying men a great discipline, the same for fasting. If you believe that Satan is the one teaching all those things in the Quran…then there is nothing I can say that will be reasonable enough for you.

    >>>>>>This is probably one of the most embarrassing claims of Islam. “If you can’t write something as eloquent as what’s written in here, then Allah is god.” Um, but look at 1 Corinthians 13, written hundreds of years before. I daresay it’s widely regarded as one of the most beautiful and inspiring eloquent pieces of literature ever written, even by non-Christians. Basically, this argument is bunk, and pretty much proves Islam false by itself.

    Again, you don’t know what you’re talking about. Tell me, what’s the original language of the Old testament? Hebrew isnt’it? And the new testament? Aramaic isn’t it? Where are the original manuscripts of the new testament? Why the most ancient manuscripts that could be found are in Greek?
    Do you read arabic? If no, then how can you judge? In my post, I was not referring only to the eloquence of the texts, but also to the content as a whole, including the scientific facts that only modern science was able to establish. Many verses were not understood until discoveries were made thanks to technologically advanced means that were not available centuries ago. As for literature and its eloquence, YES even the most knowledgeable poets and masters of the arabic language admit and confirm it, this text is a wonder in itself that has never been seen before and no one could ever compose something like it.

    >>>>>What’s your strongest claim?
    Islam: No one can write literature as eloquent as the Qur’an.
    Christianity: I can die and rise from the dead, heal the lame, save your sins, and predict all of this ahead of time. Boo-yah.
    Which one is more impressive, do you think?

    Wow. I can’t believe you base your beliefs faith according to what is more impressive. The Bible never says that Jesus Christ peace be upon him died and was resurrected, those are only conjecture and teachings of the Church. You faith is based on this so I don’t expect you to search this or to believe it even if clear evidence is shown to you from your own Bible.

    >>>>>The Arabs are so scientifically backwards that they can’t refute the West’s claims, so they resort to denial and screaming “Allahu Ackbar” until the infidels leave them alone?
    Remember the blood clot!

    Again, you have no clue of what you’re talking about. Read History and you will know the contribution of Arabs and Muslims to science and technology.

    >>>>>No problem. Humans didn’t write the Bible, but GOD did. I daresay He did a better job writing it than Satan did writing the Qur’an.

    Produce your proof that God did write the Bible! When was the Bible written? is it not more than 60 or 100 years after Jesus peace be upon him left the earthly life? Isn’t it Paul the main contributor to the new testament? How many people contributed to writing the Bible? well over 40 people!!! And point out to me where the name Bible is mentioned in it! Nowhere it is named. Bible derives from the greek word “biblos” which means book.
    Who is the author of the Quran? You claim that Muhammad did write it. Well, even if he did, then his work was a great job comparing to over 40 different people at different periods of time who wrote the Bible.

    >>>>>In other words, if we find discrepancies, which we do, then it’s not from God. Pretty simple.

    Point out a single discrepancy or contradiction or error, within its context. Produce your proof if you are right in your claim.

    >>>>Praising God and enjoying His new creation on the new earth, after the present heavens and earth have passed away.

    That’s your belief.

    They say: “None shall enter paradise except the one who is a Jew or a Christian.”
    These are their vain desires. Say O Muhammad: “Let us have your proof if you are right in your claim.”[111] Yea! Whoever submits himself entirely to Allah and is good to others will be rewarded by his Lord; and will have nothing to fear or to regret.[112] 2:[111-112]

    The Jews say: “The Christians are not on the right track,” and the Christians say: “It is the Jews who are not on the right track,” yet both read their Holy Books (Torah or Gospel). And those who have no knowledge (the pagan Arabs) say like to what both of them say; so Allah will judge between them in their dispute on the Day of Judgment.[113] 2:[113]

    Say: “We believe in Allah and that which is revealed to us; and what was revealed to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob and their descendants, and that which was given to Moses, Jesus and other Prophets from their Lord. We do not discriminate any of them, and to Allah we have surrendered ourselves (in Islam).”[136] So, if they accept Islam like you, they shall be rightly guided; if they reject it, they will surely fall into dissension (divide into differing factions); Allah will be your sufficient defender against them, and He hears and knows everything.[137] 2:[136-137]

    >>>>That’s what the BBT states, so I dunno why you would support it if you don’t believe that yourself.

    Well, again you don’t understand me. I believe in the BBT but it is not a coincidence, it is God’s creation and he is the originator of the Big Bang. He is the one who clove the heavens and the earth asunder and created everything.

    >>>>>Obviously somebody else had to write it down, because Muhammad received ‘revelations’ throughout his life, so if the Qur’an had been given to him in the beginning, it would’ve been changed by the end.
    False Premise, by the way.

    Quran was revealed in the course of 22 and a half years of Muhammad’s life peace be upon him. There were not only scribes who were writing down the revelations and repeated to the prophet to confirm everything was written correctly, but also it was memorized by heart by many believers since then, and generation after generation till today there are millions of muslims who know the full Quran by heart. Believe it or not, this is up to you.

    How many versions of the Bible exist? King James Version, Revised standard version, Jehova’s witnesses version, etc. The Catholic version includes 73 books and the Protestant version contains 66 books. The RSV preface says that the King James version contains grave defects. It’s not the muslims claim, 32 christian scholars have served as members of the Committee charged with making the revision, and they have secured the review and council of an Advisory Board of 50 representatives of the cooperating denominations.

    http://www.godrevelation.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=63:1952-rsv-preface

    As for the number of bones, if you don’t count the coccyx and the seamoides of the big toes as individual bones, then the count is 206, when counting them you get 209.

    I don’t want to go further in responding to your post, but I want to bring more arguments to the fact that the Bible was corrupted.

    a) 2 Samuel 22:7-11 (New King James Version)
    7 In my distress I called upon the LORD, And cried out to my God; He heard my voice from His temple, And my cry entered His ears. 8 “Then the earth shook and trembled; The foundations of heaven[a] quaked and were shaken, Because He was angry. 9 Smoke went up from His nostrils, And devouring fire from His mouth; Coals were kindled by it. 10 He bowed the heavens also, and came down with darkness under His feet. 11 He rode upon a cherub, and flew; And He was seen[b] upon the wings of the wind

    What mockery is this about God, The Greatest, The Creator, our Lord! Can you allow someone to speak about God this way?

    b) Exodus 33:11
    11 So the LORD spoke to Moses face to face, as a man speaks to his friend. And he would return to the camp, but his servant Joshua the son of Nun, a young man, did not depart from the tabernacle.

    c) Exodus 33:21
    21 And the LORD said, “Here is a place by Me, and you shall stand on the rock. 22 So it shall be, while My glory passes by, that I will put you in the cleft of the rock, and will cover you with My hand while I pass by. 23 Then I will take away My hand, and you shall see My back; but My face shall not be seen.”

    b and c contradict themselves. One says Moses peace be upon him spoke to God face to face, so he saw him…and the other said “My face shall not be seen”

    d) The many incest cases attributed to the prophets of God that the Bible mentions is another inconsistency that the logic and human nature cannot accept. Do you really believe that the best people and the best examples who lived on the face of this earth (the prophets and messengers of God) have committed incest? for example Lot and Abraham (peace be upon them)?

    1 example: Lot and his 2 daughters:
    Genesis 19:30-40

    30 Then Lot went up out of Zoar and dwelt in the mountains, and his two daughters were with him; for he was afraid to dwell in Zoar. And he and his two daughters dwelt in a cave. 31 Now the firstborn said to the younger, “Our father is old, and there is no man on the earth to come in to us as is the custom of all the earth. 32 Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve the lineage of our father.” 33 So they made their father drink wine that night. And the firstborn went in and lay with her father, and he did not know when she lay down or when she arose.
    34 It happened on the next day that the firstborn said to the younger, “Indeed I lay with my father last night; let us make him drink wine tonight also, and you go in and lie with him, that we may preserve the lineage of our father.” 35 Then they made their father drink wine that night also. And the younger arose and lay with him, and he did not know when she lay down or when she arose.
    36 Thus both the daughters of Lot were with child by their father. 37 The firstborn bore a son and called his name Moab; he is the father of the Moabites to this day. 38 And the younger, she also bore a son and called his name Ben-Ammi; he is the father of the people of Ammon to this day.

    This is absolutely immoral to attribute such things to a prophet of God. What teachings do you take from this? Does it mean that if someone has no son, only daughter(s), he can commit incest to preserve lineage? Since those people were supposed to guide humanity and be examples to followers.

    Now read this:
    2 Timothy 3:16-18
    16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

    I agree that this is what it should be. But can you explain what is the moral, or profitable doctrin, or reproof, or correction, or instruction in righteousness in the above and the following:

    Genesis 38 (Judah and Tamar, in which some passages can’t be PG rated), Numbers 31:14-18 and Numbers 31:35.

    What is the moral in this:
    Judges 16:1
    1 Now Samson went to Gaza and saw a harlot there, and went in to her.

    Does it mean that prostitution is fine in your beliefs? When you go to a city and find a prostitute you can use her services?

    Now from a scientific approach:

    1. Astronomy: The Bible speaks about the creation of the universe. In the beginning, 1st Book, Book of Genesis, 1st Ch., it is mentioned that… ‘Almighty God created the Heavens and the Earth, in six days and talks about an evening and a morning, referring to a 24 – hour day. Today scientists tell us, that the universe cannot have beencreated in a 24 hour period of six days.

    2. The Bible says in Genesis Ch. No. 1 Verses No. 3 and 5,…‘Light was created on the first day.’ Genesis, Ch., 1 Verses, 14 to 19… ‘The cause of light – stars and the sun, etc. was created on the fourth day’. How can the cause of light be created on the 4th day – later than the light which came into existence on the first day? – It is unscientific.

    3. Further, the, Bible says Genesis, Ch. 1, Verses 9 to 13… ‘Earth was created on the 3rd day. How can you have a night and day without the earth ? The day depends upon the rotation of the Earth Without the earth created, how can you have a night and day?

    4. Genesis, Ch. No. 1 Verses 9 to 13 says… ‘Earth was created on the third day.’ Genesis Ch. No. 1 Verses 14 to 19 says…‘The Sun and the Moon were created on the fourth day.’ Today science tells us… ‘Earth is part of the parent body… the sun.’ It cannot come into existence before the sun – It is unscientific.

    5. The Bible says in Genesis, Ch. No.1, Verse No. 11 to 13…‘The vegetation, the herbs the shrubs, the trees – they were created on the 3rd day And the Sun, Genesis, Ch. No. 1, Verses. 14 to 19, was created on the 4th day.How can the vegetation come into existence without sunlight, and how can they survive without sunlight ?

    6. The Bible says in Genesis, Ch. 1, Verses No.16, that…‘God created two lights the greater light, the Sun to rule the day, and the lesser light the Moon, to rule the night. The actual translation, if you go to the Hebrew text, it is ‘lamps’…‘Lamps having lights of its own.’ And that you will come to know better, if you read both the Verses – Genesis, Ch. No.1, Verse. 16, as well as 17. Verse No.17 says…‘And Almighty God placed them in the firmament, to give light to the earth… To give light to the earth.’ Indicating, that Sun and the Moon have each their own light – which is in contradiction with established scientific knowledge that we have.

    7.It is mentioned in the Bible, in the book of Hebrews, Ch. No.1 Verses No.10 and 11, and the book of Psalms, Ch. No.102, Verse No.25 and 26, that…‘Almighty God created the Heavens and the Earth, and they will perish.’ Exactly opposite is mentioned in the book of Ecclesiastics, Ch. No.1, Verse No.4, and the book of Psalms, Ch. No.78, Verse No.69, that… ‘The earth will abide forever.’ Which will take place? The Earth will perish or abide forever? The both can’t take place. It’s unscientific!

    8. In the field of ‘Diet and Nutrition’ let’s analyse, what does the Bible say. The Bible says in the book of Genesis, Ch. No.1, Verse No.29, that… ‘God has given you all the herbs bearing seeds, the trees bearing fruits – those that bear seed, as meat for you.’ New International Version says… ‘The seed bearing plants, and the trees bearing fruits bearing seeds are food for you, all of them.’ Today, even a layman knows that there are several poisonous plants like wild berries, stritchi, datura, plants containing alkaloid, polyander, bacaipoid – that which if you ingest, you will die. How come the Creator of the universe and the human beings, does not know, that if you have these plants, you will die.

    9. The Bible has a scientific test how to identify a true believer. It is mentioned in the Gospel of Mark, Ch. No.16, Verse No.17 and 18 – It says that… ‘There will be signs for true believers and among the signs – In my name they shall cast out devils, they shall speak foreign tongues, new tongues, they shall take up serpents – And if they drink deadly poison, they shall not be harmed – And when they place their hand over the sick, they shall be cured.’ This is a scientific test – In scientific terminology, it is known as the ‘confirmatory test’ for a true Christian believer. There has not been a single true believing Christian that has ever passed this test, because no one’s willing to even try.

    10. What does the Bible say regarding ‘Hydrology’? Bible says in Genesis, Ch. No.9, Verse No.13 to 17, that… ‘After God, at the time of Noah submerged the world by flood, and after the flood’ subsided, He said… ‘I put up a rainbow in the sky as a promise to the humankind never to submerge the world again, by water. To the unscientific person it may be quite good… ‘Oh rainbow is a sign of Almighty God, never to submerge the world by flood again.’ But today we know very well, that rainbow is due to the refraction of sunlight, with rain or mist. Surely there must have been thousands of rainbows before the time of Noah, peace be upon him. To say it was not there before Noah’s time you have to assume that the law of refraction did not exist – which is unscientific.

    11. In the field of medicine, the Bible says in the book of Leveticus, Ch. No.14, Verse No.49 to 53 – it gives a novel way for disinfecting a house from plague of leprosy…. It says that… ‘Take two birds, kill one bird, take wood, scale it – and the other living bird, dip it in water… and under running water – later on sprinkle the house 7 times with it. Sprinkle the house with blood to disinfect against plague of leprosy? You know blood is a good media of germs, bacteria, as well as toxins! Unscientific!

    12. It is mentioned in the book of Leveticus, Ch. No.12, Verse No.1 to 5, and we know medically, that after a mother gives birth to a child, the post-partal period, is unhygienic. To say it is ‘unclean’, Religiously – I have got no objection. But Leviticus, Ch. No.12 Verse No.1 to 5, says that… ‘After a woman gives birth to a male child, she will be unclean for 7 days, and the period of uncleanliness will continue for 33 days more. It she give birth to a female child, she will be unclean for two weeks, and the period of uncleanliness will continue for 66 days. In short, if a woman gives birth to a male child… ‘a son’, she is unclean for 40 days. If she gives birth to a female child… ‘a daughter’, she is unclean for 80 days. I would like any Christian to explain to me scientifically, how come a woman remains unclean for double the period, if she gives birth to a female child, as compared to a male child.

    13. The Bible also has a very good test for adultery – How to come to know a woman has committed adultery, in the book of Numbers, Ch. no.5 Verse No..11 to 31. I’ll just say in brief. It says that… ‘The priest should take holy water in a vessel, take dust from the floor, and put it into the vessel – And that is the bitter water ‘And after cursing it, give it to the woman And if the woman has committed adultery, after she drinks it, the curse will enter her body, the stomach will swell, the thigh will rot, and she shall be cursed by the people. If the woman has not committed adultery, she will remain clean and she will bear the seed. A novel method of identifying whether a woman has committed adultery or not. How unscientific!

    These are 13 out of the thousands of impossible irreconcilable scientific blunders that are found throughout the Bible!

    What about the 2 different genealogies of Jesus peace be upon him found in the Bible? Which one is right? If it is the word of God, how come there are 2 completely different genealogies of Jesus peace be upon him and the only common father between the 2 is Joseph the carpenter. (Luke 3:23-38 vs Matthew 1:1-17) make your choice.

    I don’t expect you to answer or explain anything, and sincerely I am no more interested. I believe I have provided you clear evidence that the Book you are claiming to be the authentic and unchanged word of God, has been corrupted by the hands men to suit their own desires, because God doesn’t commit errors whatsoever, scientific or historic or of any kind.
    You should really read and ponder over the 2 books, putting aside your prejudices and misconceptions about Quran and Islam in general, then let your logic and common sense guide you.
    If you can’t then you unfortunately fall in this category:

    In fact, as for those who reject Faith; it is the same, whether you warn them or you
    don’t, they will not believe.[6] Allah has sealed their hearts and their hearing, their
    eyes are covered, and there is a grievous punishment for them. [7] 2:[6-7]

    When it is said to them: “Follow what Allah has revealed.” They reply: “Nay! We will follow what our forefathers practiced.” Well! Even if their forefathers had no sense at all and lacked guidance?[170] The parable of those who reject faith is like cattle which, call out to them as one may, hear nothing but a shout and a cry since they are unable to understand; they are deaf, dumb and blind, and understand nothing.[171] 2:[170-171]

    Thanks for reading through and sorry for the length of this post.

    My Allah guide us all to his right path.

  89. December 9, 2010 6:36 PM

    >>>>>Where on earth could a camel driver in the desert have gleaned ‘Your facts’ fourteen hundred years ago, except from the Maker of the ‘Big Bang’ Himself?

    In case you’re not aware of the History, the Bible was available in that region at that time. It had been dispersed throughout the world for a good 500 years or so before the Qur’an was written, and very likely influenced it.

    >>>>>>I don’t claim, I affirm. The Quran constanlty gives challenges and contains invitations to unbelievers to find anything wrong in it.

    A human zygote has no hemoglobin in it at all. It does not even begin to contain blood until it develops blood vessels and begins to absorb those nutrients from the mother’s system. Thus, man does not develop from a blood clot, and the Qur’an is in grave error.

    >>>>>(Since its Author, Allah, the Creator of this universe, possesses complete knowledge, there is no room for doubt about its contents.)

    I daresay since its author is Satan, a fallen angel, who does not possess complete knowledge, but hates humanity, there is no room for doubt about its intent–much less when it is explicitly stated.

    >>>>>>If you are in doubt as to whether the revelations which We have sent to Our servant (Muhammad) are from Us or not, then produce one Surah (chapter) like this

    This is probably one of the most embarrassing claims of Islam. “If you can’t write something as eloquent as what’s written in here, then Allah is god.” Um, but look at 1 Corinthians 13, written hundreds of years before. I daresay it’s widely regarded as one of the most beautiful and inspiring eloquent pieces of literature ever written, even by non-Christians. Basically, this argument is bunk, and pretty much proves Islam false by itself.

    What’s your strongest claim?
    Islam: No one can write literature as eloquent as the Qur’an.
    Christianity: I can die and rise from the dead, heal the lame, save your sins, and predict all of this ahead of time. Boo-yah.

    Which one is more impressive, do you think?

    >>>>>This is a standing challenge, the famous falsification test.

    Sorry. I forgot to laugh.

    >>>>>> In 14 centuries, no one has ever been capable of doing this, you know why?

    The Arabs are so scientifically backwards that they can’t refute the West’s claims, so they resort to denial and screaming “Allahu Ackbar” until the infidels leave them alone?

    Remember the blood clot!

    >>>>>> If he said that “you can never do so” it means that absolutely no one can ever do so.

    If Satan said “you can never do so” then it doesn’t mean that. Bite me.

    >>>>>>>Declare: Even if all human beings and Jinns combined their resources to produce the like of this Qur’an, they would never be able to compose the like thereof, even if they backed up each other as best as they could.

    No problem. Humans didn’t write the Bible, but GOD did. I daresay He did a better job writing it than Satan did writing the Qur’an.

    >>>>>>>“Why don’t they research the Qur’an? Don’t they realize that if it was from someone other than Allah, they would find many discrepancies in it.”

    In other words, if we find discrepancies, which we do, then it’s not from God. Pretty simple.

    >>>>>>Have you ever asked yourself, what if God exists and the Quran is his guidance to humanity?

    I sure did, but it fails the internal consistency test repeatedly, not to mention being externally inconsistent as well, so I didn’t really have to try very hard to debunk that possibility.

    >>>>>>what will be your fate after your earthly life?

    Praising God and enjoying His new creation on the new earth, after the present heavens and earth have passed away.

    >>>>>>Do you think that all the wonderful and so perfectly made creation, including the planets, stars, galaxies, mankind, vegetable kingdom and everything else are the result of coincidence?

    That’s what the BBT states, so I dunno why you would support it if you don’t believe that yourself.

    >>>>>You claim that the Quran was copied from the Bible, because it contains sometimes similar passages. Yes of course, because their author is the same

    It is not. The Bible is from God, the Qur’an is from Satan. This is evident if you compare the two.

    >>>>>However, the Quran came to complete and confirm the previous and original scriptures that have been corrupted by the hands of men.

    You have no proof of corruption–where are the original uncorrupted copies if that were the case? This is such a weak argument. You have to be really good at denial in order to make it.

    >>>>>>Is it not a clear enough sign that the such a perfect and miraculous book was revealed to an illiterate man?

    Obviously somebody else had to write it down, because Muhammad received ‘revelations’ throughout his life, so if the Qur’an had been given to him in the beginning, it would’ve been changed by the end.

    False Premise, by the way.

    >>>>>The Quran says that the universe is expanding since its creation. Again, Science will never find a contradiction to Quran’s statements because they are the creator’s words.

    >>>>> It has never been proven wrong in anything and it is clear of any distortion whatsoever, scientific or historical or anything else.

    Remember the Blood Clot!

    http://www.answersingenesis.org/tj/v14/i3/universe.asp (universe may not be expanding)

    >>>>>>>Meaning that the iron came down to the earth after its creation and it didn’t originate inside the earth as it was previously thought. read this

    Secular scientists believe the iron was part of the earth during its formation–your concept that the earth could have been whole, with mankind on the surface, whereAFTER iron was put in the rocks, reeks of bad science and gullibility.

    >>>>>>Did you know that every human being has Allah in arabic clearly written on his body? It’s in your ears. The curves and forms when you look at your ear, without any special device or microscope or special glasses, just with your eyes: Allah is written in Arabic.

    Bullsh*t

    >>>>>>The last evidence I will relate to you is that the Quran is the only Holy book that has an extremely complexe mathematical coding that was unveiled in 1974.

    God does not care about Gematria, because it is something those who practiced witchcraft would deal with. Is God supportive of witchcraft? Even so, people have found “secret messages” in the Bible as well, so your claim is not impressive.

    If you would only search for the answers to your claims about numbers, you’d find yourself clearly wrong (or everyone else is part of a conspiracy, take your pick). For example, each of the first 3 links I googled said the human body has 206 bones in it, so bully for you.

    >>>>>>You can find the evidence to back this up at the following link

    You should probably do some independent searching before you blindly believe this stuff.

  90. December 9, 2010 11:19 AM

    @ Erik Walker:
    Yes you misread, not my post but the verse of the Quran. I didn’t claim anything, I am just relating what the Omnipotent Creator said about His creation and His knowledge is complete and far superior to what science can find till the end of time. Actually, Quran not only is in line 100% with science, but it is superior to it, believe it or not.

    That’s why, since its revelation to date and for future generations, it contains clear and irrefutable signs proving its divine origin.

    The Quran doesn’t say that the BB exploded a bunch of water. It says that the skies and earth have the same origin. they were once one mass. The water is mentioned to be the essence that made life possible for all living things including vegetable kingdom, animals, humans, etc.

    Where on earth could a camel driver in the desert have gleaned ‘Your facts’ fourteen hundred years ago, except from the Maker of the ‘Big Bang’ Himself?

    I don’t claim, I affirm. The Quran constanlty gives challenges and contains invitations to unbelievers to find anything wrong in it. It is the only Holy book that will never ever be humiliated because its author is infallible. There’s absolutely no doubt in it, read this please:

    “This is the Book in which there is no doubt. (Since its Author, Allah, the Creator of this universe, possesses complete knowledge, there is no room for doubt about its contents.) It is a guide for those who are God conscious,[2] who believe in the Unseen, who establish Salah (five regular daily prayers) and spend in charity out of what We have provided for their sustenance;[3] who believe in this Revelation (the Qur’an) which is sent to you (O Muhammad) and the Revelations which were sent before you (Torah, Psalms, Gospel…) and firmly believe in the Hereafter.[4] They are on true Guidance from their Lord and they are the ones who will attain salvation.[5]” [Quran 2:1-5]

    “If you are in doubt as to whether the revelations which We have sent to Our servant (Muhammad) are from Us or not, then produce one Surah (chapter) like this; and call your witnesses (gods that you call upon) besides Allah to assist you, if you are right in your claim.[23] But if you are unable to do so, and you can never do so, then fear the Hell fire, whose fuel is men and stones which is prepared for the unbelievers.[24] 2:[23-24]”

    This is a standing challenge, the famous falsification test. If you have any doubt and want to prove this Quran wrong, then find any discrepancy, error, unscientific statment in it. In 14 centuries, no one has ever been capable of doing this, you know why? Because the author of the book is the Omnipotent, the Omniscient, the All-knowledgable. If he said that “you can never do so” it means that absolutely no one can ever do so.

    “Declare: Even if all human beings and Jinns combined their resources to produce the like of this Qur’an, they would never be able to compose the like thereof, even if they backed up each other as best as they could.”[88] 17:[85-88]

    “Why don’t they research the Qur’an? Don’t they realize that if it was from someone other than Allah, they would find many discrepancies in it.” [4:82]

    Example: Imagine a student giving his work to his professor saying “you will never find any mistake in it”. Don’t you think the professor will feel so challenged and he will do his best to find at least an iota of error be it a coma or less? Well the same challenge is given to unbelievers: if you are in doubt, then produce one chapter like it or find any discrepancy or error in it. But keep in mind that whenever you take a statement, take it in the whole context.

    You said: “Now wouldn’t you be embarrassed if it turned out that the BBT was false? I guess you’d be quite humiliated”.

    I say: it will never happen, the creation will never be able to humiliate its Creator. Have you ever asked yourself, what if God exists and the Quran is his guidance to humanity? what will be your fate after your earthly life? Do you think that all the wonderful and so perfectly made creation, including the planets, stars, galaxies, mankind, vegetable kingdom and everything else are the result of coincidence? Do you think we are here living our life by chance and then we will die and that’s it? This earthly life is only a passage, a student’s journey at the end of which there will be a final exam where people will be held accountable for how they lived, what they did with their knowledge and how they spent their wealth, how they worshipped their Creator.

    Speaking about the meeting of 2 oceans or 2 seas: it’s not only the exegetical result of reading the text. No need to be expert in exegetical analysis of scriptures to understand it. Read this:

    He has made the two oceans apparently meeting together,[19] yet between them is a barrier which they cannot cross.[20] [55:19-20]

    He is the One Who has made the two seas rolling, the one sweet and fresh, the other salt and bitter, and set a rampart between them, an insurmountable barrier.[25:53]

    Again, Coustau made the discovery in the 1980′s

    You claim that the Quran was copied from the Bible, because it contains sometimes similar passages. Yes of course, because their author is the same. However, the Quran came to complete and confirm the previous and original scriptures that have been corrupted by the hands of men. The proof of their corruption is the scientific errors, discrepancies and contradictions, immoral facts about servants of God (prophets) they contain, but that is a different topic that I don’t want to get into. It’s natural to find some similarities because some passages remained unchanged.

    Among them there are some illiterates who do not know their Holy Book; they follow their own desires and do nothing but conjecture.[78] Woe to those who write the Book with their own hands and then say: “This is from Allah,” so that they may sell it for a petty price! Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they have earned.[79] 2:[78-79]

    O Prophet, We have sent down this Book to you (similar to that of Moses and Jesus). So the People of the Book (Jews and Christians) believe in it, and so do some of these (people of Arabia): and none but unbelievers deny Our revelations.[47] O Muhammad, you have never read a book before this nor have you ever transcribed one with your right hand. Had you done either of these, the quibblers could suspect it.[48] Rather, these are clear signs in the breast of those who are endowed with knowledge: and none deny Our signs except the wrongdoers.[49] They ask: “Why have the signs not been sent down to him from his Lord?” Tell them: “The signs are in the hands of Allah. I am only a plain Warner.”[50] Is it not enough for them that We have sent down to you this Book (AL-Qur’an) which is recited to them, surely in it is a blessing and a reminder for those who believe.[51] 29:[47-51].

    Is it not a clear enough sign that the such a perfect and miraculous book was revealed to an illiterate man?

    To Moses We gave the Book (Torah) and sent after him other Messengers in succession; then We gave Jesus, the son of Mary, clear Signs and strengthened him with the Holy Spirit (Gabriel). Why is it that whenever there came to you a Messenger with a message which did not suit your desires, you became so arrogant that to some of them you called impostors and others you killed![87] They say: “Our hearts are in secure wrappers;” but the fact of the matter is that Allah has cursed them for their disbelief, so little is that which they believe.[88] 2:[87-88]

    Now when there has come to them a Book from Allah confirming the Holy Books of Torah and Gospel which they already have – even though before this they used to pray for victory against the unbelievers – when there came to them that which they very well recognize, they knowingly rejected it; Allah’s curse is on such disbelievers.[89] Ridiculous is the price for which they have sold away their souls, that they deny Allah’s revelation merely because of their grudge, that Allah should send His grace (on an Israelite rather than) on whom He pleases from His servants (Muhammad)! They have drawn on themselves wrath upon wrath, and for such disbelievers there is a disgraceful punishment.[90] 2:[89-90]

    Say O Muhammad: “Whoever is the enemy of Jibra’el (Gabriel) should know that he revealed this Qur’an to your heart by Allah’s command, which confirms previous scriptures, and is a guidance and good news for the believers.”[97] Let them know that whoever is an enemy to Allah, His angels, His Messengers, Jibra’el (Gabriel) and Mika‘el (Michael); Allah is an enemy to such unbelievers.[98] 2:[97-98]

    As for embryology and astrology, I will only give you these links:

    You may find lots of other related videos on youtube.

    The Quran says that the universe is expanding since its creation. Again, Science will never find a contradiction to Quran’s statements because they are the creator’s words. And Islam will never be scientifically humiliated. What if you are wrong?

    Pharaoh’s body: Here are the links:

    http://www.kalamullah.com/Books/BibleQuranScience.pdf

    And believe it or not, Pharaoh did drown with his army.

    Your last paragraph about being careful about latching… Remember: The Quran is the last testament that Allah sent down and promised to preserve till the end of the world. It has never been proven wrong in anything and it is clear of any distortion whatsoever, scientific or historical or anything else. If you want to prove it wrong then take the challenge cited above.

    Another sign for them is the night; when We withdraw the daylight from it, and behold they are in darkness.[37] The sun runs its course, this course is predetermined for it by the Almighty, the All-Knowing.[38] As for the moon, We have designed phases for it till it again becomes like an old dry palm branch.[39] Neither it is possible for the sun to overtake the moon, nor for the night to outstrip the day: each floats along in its own orbit.[40] 36:[37-40]

    Did mankind know that the moon, the Sun were in motion and each has an orbit 1400 years ago?

    Glory be to Allah Who created all things in pairs: the plants of the earth, mankind themselves and other living things which they do not know. [36:36].

    Did mankind know that everything was created in pairs including the vegetable kingdom? 1400 years ago?

    Also a great scientific fact: Did you know that science has established recently that the origin of iron is external to the earth? Meaning that the iron came down to the earth after its creation and it didn’t originate inside the earth as it was previously thought. read this:

    Surely We sent Our Messengers with clear signs, and sent down with them the Book and the Scales of Justice, so that men may conduct themselves with fairness. We also sent down Iron, with its mighty strength and diverse uses for mankind, so that Allah may know those who will help Him, though unseen, and help His Messengers. Surely Allah is All-Powerful, All-Mighty.[57:25]

    You can do your search about the iron if you didn’t know that.

    Did you know that every human being has Allah in arabic clearly written on his body? It’s in your ears. The curves and forms when you look at your ear, without any special device or microscope or special glasses, just with your eyes: Allah is written in Arabic.

    The last evidence I will relate to you is that the Quran is the only Holy book that has an extremely complexe mathematical coding that was unveiled in 1974. Meaning that if any letter or word was changed or removed from the original revelation, the mathematical coding will be destroyed. It is all constructed arount the number 19 which is Allah’s signature in the universe and in our own bodies. Example:

    1. The sun, the moon, and the earth become aligned in the same relative positions once every 19 years (see ENCYCLOPEDIA JUDAICA under “Calendar”).
    2. Halley’s comet, a profound heavenly phenomenon, visits our solar system every 76 years, 19×4.
    3. God’s stamp on you and me is manifested in the fact that the human body contains 209 bones, 19×11.
    4. LANGMAN’S MEDICAL EMBRYOLOGY, by T. W. Sadler, is used as a textbook in most of the Medical Schools in the U.S.A. On Page 88 of the Fifth edition, we read the following statement: “In general the length of pregnancy for a full term fetus is considered to be 280 days or 40 weeks after onset of the last menstruation, or more accurately, 266 days or 38 weeks after fertilization.” The numbers 266 and 38 are both multiples of 19.

    Now the Quran also is mathematically coded around 19 and its multiples in a very complex and supernatural way. Certainly not an illiterate man in the desert of Arabia could have done this himself even nowadays. That’s why Allah said: “then produce one Surah (chapter) like this; and call your witnesses (gods that you call upon) besides Allah to assist you, if you are right in your claim.[23] But if you are unable to do so, and you can never do so”

    You can find the evidence to back this up at the following link:

    http://submission.nu/quran/appendices/appendix1.html

    Another great source of evidence:

    http://www.godrevelation.org/

    This is my conclusion, a verse from the Quran:
    “If the ocean were ink with which to write the words of my Lord, the ocean would surely be consumed before the words of my Lord are finished, even if We brought similar quantity of ink to replenish it. 18:[109]

    Allah knows best.

  91. December 8, 2010 10:37 PM

    >>>>made of ground…sure that’s right. But without water do you think our creation could have been possible? Do you know what the proportion of water in our cells is? Even the bactery body which is made of 1 cell contains 80% of water.

    I’m not arguing that. I daresay you’ll find no one who will support that the BB exploded a bunch of water (that’s what it seemed as if you were saying based on the juxtaposition of your words; sorry if I misread your post).

    >>>>>>Even if the BBT is an atheistic theory, it has been mentioned as a fact not theory 1432 years ago in a book that can’t have been written by a human being. This book contains over 6000 verses amongst which no less than 1000 speak about science.

    Now wouldn’t you be embarrassed if it turned out that the BBT was false? I guess you’d be quite humiliated. Even though you’re not Christian, you should learn from what happened the last time the Church sided with the scientific establishment and compromised scripture–they got royally embarrassed and have been ridiculed by atheists since.

    >>>>>Another scientific fact: When 2 seas or oceans meet, they will not mix and no one transgresses the other. You will find on one side a water with certain properties and salt concentration and on the other side different properties. Discovered by Jacques Coustau in the 1980′s. Guess what? Already mentioned in the Quran 14 centuries ago.

    If that is a legitimate exegetical result of reading the text, then we’re getting somewhere. You’ll need a lot more than that, though, and I’m familiar with quite a few scientific blunders in the Qur’an.

    >>>>>Embryology is another field where Quran has described in the very details since the 1st cell.

    Sorry, but the human baby does not grow from a blood clot. There’s blood involved, but not from the beginning, and there’s no clotting.

    [sex, water cycle, paths of luminaries] –> That’s also in the Bible. Considering that the Qur’an is written afterwards, it is certainly reasonable that the writers of the Qur’an copied information that sounded good to them. Either way, it’s not something exclusive to the Qur’an. Lastly, it might not be the correct interpretation of the text, but barring seeing the text itself, I can’t say for sure, just speculate.

    >>>>>The universe is expanding: this is one of the recent discoveries of astrology… again in the Quran clearly mentioned.

    The Bible also contains language that can be interpreted to mean an expanding universe. The same passage can be interpreted to mean that space has been stretched but is No Longer expanding. The fact is that there are numerous papers out there by even atheistic scientists that suggest that the red shift does not unequivocally derive from a doppler effect. If atheists change their mind regarding whether the universe is expanding or not, won’t that be embarrassing for Islam to be making that claim?

    >>>>>I will also cite one big sign that was revealed in the Quran: The body of Moses’s pharaoh which was found in the 19th century in the sea in an incredibly preserved in a great shape after 3000 years.

    Please give me a link or two. Would love to see if there’s anything remotely true about this.

    [cites verses] That’s nice, but wouldn’t it be embarrassing if it turns out he didn’t drown? (I recall reading something to this effect). The Bible only states that Pharaoh’s army drowned, leaving open the possibility that Pharaoh did not.

    Just be careful about latching onto claims that seem to back up your beliefs. They often do not — just watch the atheists scramble when ‘new evidence’ is revealed. I fully believe that there ought to be some historical truth in the Qur’an, since it’s not completely fabricated, but there ought to be (and are certainly) many notable distortions, both internally and externally, historically and scientifically. When your claims are found to be wrong, just keep this in mind and be open to the possibility that maybe Islam is not inspired by an Omniscient being.

  92. December 8, 2010 7:45 PM

    made of ground…sure that’s right. But without water do you think our creation could have been possible? Do you know what the proportion of water in our cells is? Even the bactery body which is made of 1 cell contains 80% of water.
    Even if the BBT is an atheistic theory, it has been mentioned as a fact not theory 1432 years ago in a book that can’t have been written by a human being. This book contains over 6000 verses amongst which no less than 1000 speak about science.

    Another scientific fact: When 2 seas or oceans meet, they will not mix and no one transgresses the other. You will find on one side a water with certain properties and salt concentration and on the other side different properties. Discovered by Jacques Coustau in the 1980′s. Guess what? Already mentioned in the Quran 14 centuries ago. A book that people claim Muhammad peace be upon him has written himself. Well, he lived in the heart of the desert and was illiterate…I wonder how he could guess. Embryology is another field where Quran has described in the very details since the 1st cell. Is it not in the 20th century that we came to know that the sex of the babies are determined by the sperm? Yes of course. But this fact is stated in the Quran again, by Muhammad back in the 7th century. The water cycle, explained in details in the Quran, was described only recently by modern science. When did science advance that the all celestial bodies were running each in its own orbit? again in the Quran clearly in unequivocal statments. The universe is expanding: this is one of the recent discoveries of astrology… again in the Quran clearly mentioned. I can go on and on with many more scientific details revealed in the Quran but only discovered and established by modern science. I will also cite one big sign that was revealed in the Quran: The body of Moses’s pharaoh which was found in the 19th century in the sea in an incredibly preserved in a great shape after 3000 years.

    “Pharoah and his hosts pursued them with wickedness and oppression, until when drowning, he cried out: “I believe that there is no god but Him in Whom the Children of Israel believe and I have become one of the Muslims.”[90] In response it was said to him: “Now you believe! But a little while before you were disobedient and one of the mischief-makers![91] We shall save your body this day, so that you may become a sign for the succeeding generations; indeed many among mankind are heedless of Our signs!”
    Quran [10:90-92]

    The scientist who examined the body back in the 70′s was a French surgeon who was amazed when he was told that the Quran mentioned that the body of Pharaoh will be preserved. He went into a journey to study arabic and read Quran to prove it wrong. He ended up writing his famous book: “The Bible, The Quran and Science” available for free on the net. Guess what, he couldn’t prove anything wrong in it and ended up converting to Islam. Check also “Keith Moore” a famous american Gynecologist and Obstetrician who ended up converting to Islam because he was amazed by the details he found in the description of the embryology in the Quran.

    Soon shall We show them Our signs in the universe and in their own souls, until it becomes clear to them that this Qur’an is indeed the truth [Quran 41:53].

    Peace to you and may you find the truth.

  93. December 8, 2010 7:07 PM

    >>>>>You’re abusing a self-erected strawman. At no point in our discussion did I claim that scientific empiricism (note the qualifier) encompasses deductive reasoning.

    I know you didn’t. You claimed that empiricism was all that there is, which is false, and to demonstrate, I pointed out that deductive reasoning is highly important to acquiring knowledge and truth, and since it is not contained in empiricism, then empiricism could NOT be the be-all, end-all that you indicated it was in the first post in which you mentioned it.

    Does that clarify it for you?

    >>>>The class of evolutionary algorithms fits the bill. Moving the goalposts by claiming that it doesn’t have any connection to “common descent of all life on Earth” is a weak attempt to save face.

    It’s not “moving the goalposts,” it’s clarifying what I meant by “evolution,” since you employed the fallacy of equivocation in order to try to answer my challenge.

    >>>>Using minor variations of the childish taunt “is this the best you can do?” doesn’t help your argument.

    ??? So your argument now is “stop being mean to me?” Hey, if you don’t have a case for your claim, but you insist that I’m wrong, you better expect to be ridiculed.

    @ Commonsense, you were doing fine until you claimed that living things were made out of water (the creatures of the earth were made out of the ground), and appealed to the Big Bang theory. Don’t you know that the BBT is an explicitly atheistic theory, designed to conjure up a cosmology which people may appeal to in order to avoid acknowledging the existence of the Creator? You going along with them indicates that you’re seeking the world’s approval, and if anything is an indication of a failed body of believers, it’s one that tries to emulate the world that it’s supposed to be changing.

  94. December 8, 2010 3:55 PM

    It is easier to present arguments and convince an atheist of the existence of God than to convert a believer from one to another religion.
    The Atheist attests and agrees with the first part of an important statment “monotheism”: There is no god….but One God. All it takes is to prove the second part “but One God”.
    Let’s ask the questions that Albert Einstein asked his professor when he was a little kid:
    D0es cold exist? One would say “yes”. The fact is, cold doesn’t exist, because it’s the absence of heat.
    Does darkness exist? One would says obviously “yes”. The fact is that it doesn’t. Darkness is the absence of light. Light can be studied but not darkness!
    Does Evil exist? We would say “absolutely yes”. In fact it doesn’t, just like cold and darkness. Evil is the result of what happens when a man doesn’t have God’s Love.
    I have read all the comments and I feel sorry for the atheists that still do not believe that the heavens and the earth and everything between them are the creation of One God.
    Whoever claims to use logic and commonsense cannot be an atheist, because logic, common sense and reason will prove him wrong. Many atheists are blind-minded, God has put a veil on their eyes, their hearts and their minds so they are blind, deaf and dumb, with no reason.
    Some people asked for proofs that such and such is right, or such and such is wrong. I believe that, if these people are here asking those questions, it means that they already have their prejudices and whatever proof is presented to them, they will reject it. Why? because of the reason cited in the previous paragraph.
    If you want real answers with proofs, it’s not by reading comments here and there, but rather by doing an objective search with open mind and a study of whatever you want to know more about, by using logic, reason and common sense. You can read books (like the holy books: “The Bible”, The Quran”, “Hindou Scriptures”, etc. Watch conferences and debates (by the tonnes on the web i.e youtube). Just type in the subject: Does God exist? Is the Bible God’s word? is the Quran God’s word? Bible and Science, Quran and Science, etc. I challenge anyone to do a deep search and not be amazed by how deep he was in the darkness of ignorance about the existence of God.
    I read above someone asking about a clear scientific fact in the Quran that was recently discovered which earned its discoverer a Nobel Prize. Well here it is:

    Have not the unbelievers ever considered that the skies and the earth were once one
    mass, then We split them asunder? And We have created every living thing from
    water. Will they still not believe? [Quran 21:30]

    This was the verse describing the skies and the earth that were joined together and God split them asunder = The Big Bang Theory. Nobel prize of Physics in the 1960-1970′s. This was revealed in the 7th century.

    I will have more to say later as I am running out of time now. If you have questions, please email me.

  95. observer permalink
    December 8, 2010 3:24 PM

    @Erik Walker/* Atheist:
    You’re abusing a self-erected strawman. At no point in our discussion did I claim that scientific empiricism (note the qualifier) encompasses deductive reasoning. Science uses a combination of the two, whereby fundamental premises are informed by observations and evidence. In the case of hypotheses, the premises must have at least one implication that is falsifiable. Remember, you were the one claiming universality of your epistemological method, not me.

    Quoting you, “on the contrary, you can’t name ONE piece of major technology that was developed by _using evolutionistic principles_” (emphasis mine). The class of evolutionary algorithms fits the bill. Moving the goalposts by claiming that it doesn’t have any connection to “common descent of all life on Earth” is a weak attempt to save face.

    You’ve dug yourself into a hole deep enough for my purposes. Scratching the sides of this pit won’t get you out.

    P.S: Using minor variations of the childish taunt “is this the best you can do?” doesn’t help your argument. You’ve obviously a big fan of that, as you’ve used it a number of times in this and other threads.

  96. Inconsistent Atheist permalink
    December 8, 2010 2:39 PM

    >>>>I made it clear in a couple of earlier posts that I was using the term “empiricism” as a reference to the scientific process, not the kind originally put forward by Locke and Hume.

    I didn’t notice–so what if you did? That’s not what empiricism means, and you don’t have the authority to change dictionary terms to suit your whim. I realize this is a common theme among nonbelievers, but empiricism means a particular thing, so if you don’t mean what you say, say something different.

    Meanwhile, let’s redefine evolution to mean belief in Jesus Christ. Congratulations, now all you atheists are Christians. How’dya like that?

    >>>>“In other words empiricism is false”? Really? It’s unwise to feign lack of reading comprehension…

    What scientific test did you do to determine that it’s unwise to do anything? The point is that decuctive reasoning (or inductive for that matter) is not an empirical process. If you doubt, feel free to read several well-known scholars’ essays on the subject. I’m not going to help you because you should be able to find a bunch of links in no time at all if you even try to search for it in Google.

    I’m not sure what you mean by “watchmaker analogy in disguise.”

    [evolutionary algorithm]

    1. Fallacy of Equivocation. A better term would be “optimization algorithm,” or at best, “selective/adaptive algorithm.” There’s no connection to the concept of common descent of all life on earth.
    2. What technology has resulted from this?
    3. Is this the best you can do?

  97. observer permalink
    December 8, 2010 2:18 PM

    @Irrational/Goofy Atheist:
    I made it clear in a couple of earlier posts that I was using the term “empiricism” as a reference to the scientific process, not the kind originally put forward by Locke and Hume. As for the rest of your post, I’m beginning to think this is an exercise in pretending to be as willfully obtuse as possible. “In other words empiricism is false”? Really? It’s unwise to feign lack of reading comprehension. I know you’re fully able to understand exactly what was written (and I was deliberately precise with my language), so please don’t resort to non-sequiturs like the whole dinosaur tangent (which is the Watchmaker’s Fallacy in disguise). You can do much better than that.

    Here’s some illuminating reading: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolutionary_algorithm. Before you retort with the false claim that algorithms are not “really” technology, realize that the field of robotics hasn’t advanced to such an extent that we’re able to create physically self-replicating objects – well, besides factories.

  98. Goofy Atheist permalink
    December 8, 2010 1:46 PM

    I mean that no matter how elaborate BBC’s CGI Walking With Dinosaurs/Beasts gets, it has nothing to do with the development of the computer, for example.

    The biggest impact of evolutionary philosophy has been in the entertainment industry. Sci-fi movies seems to be all that it’s good for.

    On the contrary, you can’t name ONE piece of major technology that was developed by using evolutionistic principles (note: don’t confuse that with a technology developed with the intent of “studying” evolutionism).

    Go ahead and try, if you think you’re up to it.

  99. AndyC permalink
    December 8, 2010 1:37 PM

    @Irrational Atheist

    “They also didn’t evolve, nor where they the product of storytelling about dinosaurs and millions of years.”

    What do you mean story telling about dinosaurs?

  100. Irrational Atheist permalink
    December 8, 2010 1:26 PM

    >>>>>>As it is currently phrased, the question is nonsensical. The concepts of proof and binary truth are strictly in the domain of formal logic, as you can read about here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formal_system. They are constructs of human understanding that yield ways to model reality.

    In other words, empiricism is false, because there are (and must be) other ways by which to acquire knowledge/truth.

    >>>>>Without going off on a tangent involving the various subtopics of epistemology, it’s clear that no other form of reasoning about the natural world has a success record even remotely comparable to that of science

    Fallacy of Equivocation. Science == Lt. knowledge. Empiricism == the notion that knowledge is only able to be gained by observation.

    Please avoid conflating the two.

    >>>>>Computers didn’t magically materialize out of fat air as gifts from some deity

    They also didn’t evolve, nor where they the product of storytelling about dinosaurs and millions of years.

    >>>>Their invention was predicated upon scientific discoveries across all of physics

    There you go! Let’s see how long this consistency lasts….

    >>>>>>It’s certainly much more than can be said for the bare assertions of religion.

    Now you’re comparing a philosophical system of reasoning with a SET of beliefs. Religious truths are not a particular way of thought, but a collection of thoughts.

    >>>>Fortunately, most of those assertions have lost their power on people’s minds over the centuries

    Which ones? I daresay you’ll be unable to demonstrate that anything we ‘lost’ was part of anything the Bible states.

    >>>>>It’s too bad the religion discussed here is so insecure of itself that it prescribes gruesome death for those with the intellectual fortitude to disbelieve (i.e. apostasy in Islam).

    Well, Satan’s goal is to deceive, so he’s taking advantage of the ability to kill dissenters by mandating it.

  101. observer permalink
    December 8, 2010 10:50 AM

    Quoting Eric Walker:
    “Can you prove empiricism true empirically?”

    As it is currently phrased, the question is nonsensical. The concepts of proof and binary truth are strictly in the domain of formal logic, as you can read about here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formal_system. They are constructs of human understanding that yield ways to model reality.

    What you’re probably trying to ask is, “can (scientific) empiricism validate itself”? Without going off on a tangent involving the various subtopics of epistemology, it’s clear that no other form of reasoning about the natural world has a success record even remotely comparable to that of science, insofar as success means predictive power and descriptive accuracy. This discussion is itself facilitated by an enormous number of scientific discoveries over the past few centuries. Computers didn’t magically materialize out of fat air as gifts from some deity. Their invention was predicated upon scientific discoveries across all of physics (quantum mechanics, thermodynamics, electromagnetism, etc.). Smallpox wasn’t eradicated by sky-wizards, but with vaccines developed from a scientific understanding of life. Incidentally, the act of comparing the successes of different methods of reasoning is itself empirical in nature.

    It’s certainly much more than can be said for the bare assertions of religion. Fortunately, most of those assertions have lost their power on people’s minds over the centuries, or else we’d still be burning women alive for being “witches” and thinking that thunderstorms are expressions of some capricious god’s wrath. It’s too bad the religion discussed here is so insecure of itself that it prescribes gruesome death for those with the intellectual fortitude to disbelieve (i.e. apostasy in Islam).

  102. December 8, 2010 10:23 AM

    Neither one is fiction, really. Islam is pure evil, but there’s some dangerous truth in it. It could cost you your life; read up.

    I find it amusing when you act superior as if you know for a fact that any or both of our beliefs are false, when you haven’t researched either of them, not to mention the fact that your own position is logically untenable.
    :)

  103. AndyC permalink
    December 8, 2010 10:20 AM

    ” to avoid this problem, they [muslims] claim without evidence that the Bible has been ‘corrupted’ ”

    “It is entirely reasonable to suggest that Islam could be the vehicle that will be used by the AntiChrist to take control of the world in the Last Days”

    I love it when fiction bashes other fiction. “My fiction is better than your fiction! nananananah”

  104. observer permalink
    December 8, 2010 9:57 AM

    Quoting Miriam:
    “and by the way your hobo could never produce something equal to the holy books.”

    Of course not. He is illiterate. He would have to dictate his inane ramblings to me over a few years, after which I would edit and compile his works into a holy book. But I would never distribute it. Things didn’t turn out too well the last time this chain of events happened.

  105. December 8, 2010 9:57 AM

    >>>>While we’re throwing about accusations of “closed-mindedness” as a last-ditch attempt to dodge the sword of empiricism

    Can you prove empiricism true empirically?

  106. observer permalink
    December 8, 2010 9:45 AM

    While we’re throwing about accusations of “closed-mindedness” as a last-ditch attempt to dodge the sword of empiricism, an apropos quote should illuminate the absurdity of this behaviour:
    “I contend that we’re both atheists; I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you reject all the other possible gods, you will understand why I reject yours.” – Stephen F. Roberts

    So are the believers here closed-minded about Zeus, Thor, Ganesh, Xenu and the rest of the imagined deities?

  107. December 8, 2010 9:21 AM

    >>>>>Allah is the Arabic word for God.

    Correction. Allah is the Arabic NAME for God. They have a different word for “God,” indicating that Allah doesn’t mean God at all. Just a minor point.

    >>>>The objective evidence for the existence of Allah is equivalent to that for the existence of the other ~2800 deities in which humans have believed over the millennia – that is, there is none.

    This single line is the best you could attempt at a rebuttal? You guys must be strapped for funds after all those wasted advertisements! Can’t even put forth a decent effort at refuting something.

    Fact is, this statement is wrong. Once again your laziness defeats your scholarship. There’s certainly a lot more to Allah than there is to, say, Brahman, despite the glaring contradictions to the Bible, which Islam requires Muslims to revere as inerrant (to avoid this problem, they claim without evidence that the Bible has been ‘corrupted’).
    There certainly seems to be some supernatural elements behind Islam’s origin, if only to judge by the eerie similarities (and notable differences) to the Bible, especially its end-time prophecies.

    It is entirely reasonable to suggest that Islam could be the vehicle that will be used by the AntiChrist to take control of the world in the Last Days. Of course, the atheists will disagree, but then again, you’re blinded by your close-minded unwillingness to rationally address arguments about God in the first place, so I’m not concerned.

    ‘Just felt I had to correct you. Good day.

  108. AndyC permalink
    December 8, 2010 6:50 AM

    Miriam

    “Your words against the website have no value if their not backed by actual facts against it.”

    observer told you that “The atomic world was first hypothesized by Leucippus in around 500 BC” after you said ” [the quran].. talks about the atom and how it is the smallest thing and that everything is made up of atoms”.

    Is this not enough to disprove what you say? What else do you need??? Could you not do a tiny bit of research and find out that this is correct? Maybe do a google search or something? Or does your religion forbid you?

    observer has undeniably disproved you on this point. Just like all creationists though you will still continue to shout “Show me the facts! Where are the facts??”.

    Jeez

  109. Miriam permalink
    December 8, 2010 12:06 AM

    and by the way your hobo could never produce something equal to the holy books.

  110. Miriam permalink
    December 8, 2010 12:04 AM

    Observer:
    Every great theory was once rejected and vice versa. Obviously. But it just proves that people are you are ignorent and incapable of discovering new possibilties unless evidence is shoved into their faces. You reject things you can find no evidence against, anyone can say that something is wrong using sophisticated words . Your words against the website have no value if their not backed by actual facts against it. Well known scientist appreciate the contributions the Quran has brought to modern day science. Its ironic that you speak of logic fallacies when the whole theory of evolution is a banquet of unlogical statements. Seriously we humans beleive we know so much but really we dont know anything for sure we all rely on faith. You people have just placed all your faith into science. A science that is filled with flaws and mistakes that are clearly distinguishable. Socrates once said, “I am wise because I know that I know nothing”

  111. observer permalink
    December 7, 2010 11:48 PM

    @Miriam:
    The onus is on the believer to provide evidence for their assertions. The same holds true for that mentally ill hobo who lives across the street from my apartment, who claims that he communicates psychically with Martian badgers at night. Because he hasn’t provided any evidence for his assertions, it would be silly for me to assume that his ramblings are true. Coincidentally, there is an unintentional but valid analogy between the hobo and the various prophets among the world’s many religions.

    When Leucippus first thought of the atomic-world hypothesis, he didn’t have any evidence to back up his claims (due to technological limitations). His hypothesis was confirmed as “true” (sort of) thousands of years later, with the advent of exponentially improving technology – made possible by none other than modern empirical science. It would have been perfectly alright for people in his day to reject his claims on grounds of insufficient evidence. Many did so. You may say, “well he was right in the end, so obviously absence of evidence doesn’t matter”. But you’re ignoring the countless hypotheses that turned out to be laughably false. Among history’s innumerable assumptions, far more turned out to be wrong than right. By at least a few _orders of magnitude_. The elemental theory (fire, wind, etc.), causes of thunderstorms, geocentricism, the miasma theory of disease, etc. I could go on.

    As for the website you linked to, I don’t see a single “explanation” that hasn’t been refuted countless times already. The author is obviously a huge fan of setting up strawmen, with the usual “humans evolved from monkeys” and “the Universe came from nothing” (both are gross misrepresentations of scientific facts). Almost every claim on there is rife with logical fallacies.

  112. Miriam permalink
    December 7, 2010 9:39 PM

    AndyC:
    Fools laugh at others. Wisdom laughs at itself
    -Osho

  113. Miriam permalink
    December 7, 2010 9:10 PM

    What I meant when I was referring to the earths shape was that long ago people disapproved of the idea that the world is round , they demanded scientific evidence. Today people are denying the fact that the idea that there is a higher power because they want a scientific explanation. We humans don’t have the resources to find evidence for this great belief at this point. Just like how Plato did not have the evidence to predict the earths sphere like shape. When a person is close minded they will never be able to advance in science or in anything really their intellectual knowledge will overshadow their common sense. And as for those who would like to see other scientific predictions from the Quran they can try this website, http://scienceislam.com/

  114. AndyC permalink
    December 7, 2010 7:23 PM

    @TruthOverIgnorance

    Atoms are not the smallest thing.

    I’d really love it if you came back on here and gave us some more examples “scientific facts” revealed in the Quran which we can totally disprove.

    What you need to realise is that none of your arguments for the validity of the Quran will stand up under scrutiny. Just like the arguments for Christianity, Zeus, homoeopathy and all other superstitious mumbo jumbo.

  115. observer permalink
    December 7, 2010 3:55 PM

    @Miriam:
    Assuming for the sake of argument that the Quran does indeed contain scientific hypotheses (which really should be cited, but I digress), the ones you mentioned were discovered by civilizations predating the creation of Islam. The atomic world was first hypothesized by Leucippus in around 500 BC. In 330 BC, Aristotle provided observational evidence that the Earth is curved. It has also been documented that this observation was later adopted by Islam (among other groups). Perhaps the Quran doesn’t claim to be the “discoverer” of these facts, but if it does, then it is demonstrably false.

  116. observer permalink
    December 7, 2010 3:44 PM

    Most of the comments posted here are quite instructive. Apparently it’s very easy to get a person to sacrifice their intellectual autonomy by merely demanding that they do so, repeatedly. It’s clear that this is one of the reasons why Islam places such importance on “submission”. Submit to our fabricated sky-wizard or suffer in the fabricated afterlife, in a fabricated hell. Better yet, we’ll pretend that we’re acting on behalf of our imaginary master by threatening to kill you unless you submit.

  117. TruthOverIgnorance permalink
    December 7, 2010 2:16 PM

    If you guys weren’t idiots who refuse to actually read the Qur’an, you would know that there are scientific facts revealed in the Qur’an which weren’t discovered by scientists until centuries later. Some examples of this include the development of the fetus, which is elaborated in precise detail, the fact that mountains have roots, and maybe most interestingly, it talks about the atom and how it is the smallest thing and that everything is made up of atoms. You are a people who are deaf and blind. Your hearts are hardened and you take your desires to be your god. “There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance.” – Imam Ali ibn Abu Talib

  118. December 7, 2010 2:09 PM

    If it takes an atheist bus ad to spark a discussion about Jesus around Christmas time, so be it. However, I’m not sure how smart it is to put Christ right up there next to Big Foot, UFO’s, Zeus and (freaking) ALLAH… !!!!

    stop. WHAT ARE YOU THINKING!

    HAVEN’T YOU GUYS SEEN ANY HOLLYWOOD FILMS SET IN THE MIDDLE EAST LATELY? LIKE, THE ONES WITH LEO DI CAPRIO IN THEM, OR JAMIE FOXX? THESE GUYS AREN’T KIDDING AROUND. and you’re basically saying that Allah is imaginary, ON A BUS?

    ?

    SERIOUSLY, ATHEISTS?

    You might THINK you’re smarter than the rest of us…

    That’s it, I’m buying a car. It’s one thing to put up with the smell and general discomfort of public transit. It’s a different thing COMPLETELY to sit inside an atheist bus that drives around insulting the most zealously religious people on the world, many of whom already hate us (well, hate is a strong word… but ya, still, HATE us), probably because we have more shopping malls than them. (among other reasons…)

    Don’t you know what some Muslims like to do to buses?

    Bright idea, guys!

    So maybe we should just leave the debates in the classroom, or at least until after the kids have gone to bed, ok? Sarcastic atheistic remarks are one thing, but if there’s one thing we can ALL agree on, it’s that NOTHING RUINS CHRISTMAS LIKE TERRORISM.

  119. AndyC permalink
    December 7, 2010 6:37 AM

    “What about the scientific proof in the quran?”

    Brilliant!! You have to laugh at this kind of delusion!

  120. J. Orchard permalink
    December 6, 2010 9:53 PM

    Miriam: post-hoc scientific discoveries are unimpressive. I would be far more impressed if the Quran made scientific predictions that are tested objectively and shown to be true. Show me the passages in the Quran that will garner the Nobel Prize some day.

  121. Miriam permalink
    December 6, 2010 8:45 PM

    What about the scientific proof in the quran, the quran mentions facts on embriology and the big bang theory. It speaks about the solar system and the human creation. Islam is a reliogen that forshadowed what we have learned through modern science. Eventually we will learn about a higher power (ALLAH swt) we will have proof. If we proposed the idea that the world is flat a long time ago scientist would reject the notion and demand proof. Today we have prooved that in fact the world is round. Science will eventually enable us to have proof on the existance of God. We humans know so little our ignorance and ego make us think we know everything.

  122. Jason permalink
    December 6, 2010 2:15 PM

    If God do exist, the burden of proof should be on those who believed he does exist. Those who do not believe that there is a God can not prove he does not exist, how do you proof something that does not exist other than the fact, there is no evidences its existed?

    Remember the unicorn theory?
    A: Unicorn exist
    B: No they don’t
    A: Prove it
    B: I don’t see it, how you prove it

  123. AndyC permalink
    December 6, 2010 12:51 PM

    “Muslims consider Quran as a proof of God’s (Allah’s) existence not (only) because of its message, but because of its literary value and construction, which is almost impossible to achieve by a human without some inspiration or influence, coincidence, moment of genius, whatever you want to call it. Muhamed p.b.u.h. did not write it: he was narrating it. ”

    You cannot argue with a somebody who ACTUALLY BELIEVES this stuff. You just have to laugh about it, or cry. This is world we live in folks, full or superstition and groundless beliefs. I love it.

    If this guy was alive in ancient Greek times when most people believed in Thor, he definitely would have been a believer. That is undeniable.

    “I just proved extraordinarybus to be an ignorant fool. ” Oh yes what great proof!

    It doesn’t take much to convince the mind of a believer.

  124. JustMe permalink
    December 6, 2010 9:39 AM

    Don’t say there is no evidence. Just say you don’t know it. Atheism is all about being “reasonable” and not “limiting your brain” and stuff right? Atheists accuse theists of being stupid and silly because we tend to explain “everything” by God. Well, if you’re all about no limitations and stuff, then why are you shutting down the subject so quickly? No evidence, no God. ^o). Seems a little immature to me. So many people believe in this. So unless you can give evidence that it doesn’t exist, you can’t disprove it.

  125. true believer permalink
    December 6, 2010 8:29 AM

    (Some) Muslims consider Quran as a proof of God’s (Allah’s) existence not (only) because of its message, but because of its literary value and construction, which is almost impossible to achieve by a human without some inspiration or influence, coincidence, moment of genius, whatever you want to call it. Muhamed p.b.u.h. did not write it: he was narrating it. It was written down after he died. It’s saying in Quran somewhere that if you don’t believe its validity and message, to try and make new book just like Quran same way and see for yourself how hard (impossible) would it be. I just proved extraordinarybus to be an ignorant fool. Like in this case, If you want to put some claims about anything and don’t want to look like an idiot, it always helps if you got a clue.

  126. VillageHumanist permalink
    December 4, 2010 5:32 PM

    @a.s
    “u gonna know when ALLAH punish n destroy u soon about u talking about now.”

    I used to feel the exact same way being raised as a muslim.

    Allah is real, we cannot question him or think critically about theology, for that is harram!
    Evolution is a lie, I cannot look at the evidence and come to a conclusion, the Quran says otherwise, human beings are not animals!
    Muslims are the only people that will go to heaven!
    The Quran is full of scientific miracles, and has no contradictions or immoral passages!

    The truth hurts. Please read the Quran yourself, in a language you actually comprehend. Look at all sides of the argument. It’s nice to persist in delusion but the truth is not going to change.

    @roorkee

    “In the absence of any evidence or reason to think otherwise,…

    The fact that we can not give a proof for Allah existence DOES NOT imply He does not exist. There are ages when human can not PROVE that the earth is circulating around the sun. But it does not mean otherwise.”

    It also does not imply he exists or is even likely to exist. What makes Allah any more probable than the flying spagetti monster? Or any of the other infinity of Gods my mind can imagine. Your anology with the sun fails on multiple levels. We have had the evidence for heliocentric theory all along, we just didn’t have the tools, along with other scientific advances, to help interpret that evidence. And what happened? The correct answer was later revealed; not by an imaginary god talking to a temporally, spatially, verbally, and mentally isolated being, but rather by the advances of mankind that proved otherwise.

    @Adbhalkhazz’aar
    “Don’t attack the religion of peace! May Allah destroy you!!!”
    How ironic. Too bad omnipotent Allah is busy hiding while his braindead followers are corruping society.

  127. December 3, 2010 7:52 PM

    why do so few people see how childish the my god can beat up your god debate

    and why would anyone want to worship anything that demands it unearned

    these gods are rather insecure and self absorbed children

    who needs that?

  128. a.s permalink
    December 3, 2010 6:54 PM

    u gonna know when ALLAH punish n destroy u soon about u talking about now.

  129. a.s permalink
    December 3, 2010 6:52 PM

    u gonna know when ALLAH punish u soon.cz u talking like u the god in the world…

  130. ibadurrahman permalink
    December 3, 2010 5:48 AM

    Then, why do humans have the tendency to develop some sort of “corporate mythology”, as you conclude? And why humans have a strong tendency towards the ruler of the universe? And why there are groups of people who suddenly feel created in this world (the atheist) with without clear where it came from?

  131. ibadurrahman permalink
    December 3, 2010 5:32 AM

    I asked the atheist. spends the blood flowing in your body? Who is your heart pumping?

  132. Marty M permalink
    December 2, 2010 5:06 PM

    roorkee,

    I think that when people start making decisions about life and politics based solely on faith, dangerous things can happen. There can be no continutiy in beliefs when everyone can just make stuff up out of thin air. Is there really “nothing we can do”?
    The faith I have is that the ideas of science can spread and enlighten people, allowing them to come together and build a better world. Isn’t that what this site is really all about?

  133. ChrisR permalink
    December 2, 2010 2:24 PM

    Don’t let anybody, including yourself, convince you that their god is the only true god out of the ~2800 other gods that humans have made up. Please don’t fool yourself.

  134. roorkee permalink
    December 2, 2010 1:20 PM

    In the absence of any evidence or reason to think otherwise,…

    The fact that we can not give a proof for Allah existence DOES NOT imply He does not exist. There are ages when human can not PROVE that the earth is circulating around the sun. But it does not mean otherwise.

    It is the capacity to believe.

    If ONE believe that GOD exist or does not, let him/her do it. There is nothing we can do other than hoping for the best.

    For you is what you believe. For me is what I believe.

  135. Argus permalink
    November 21, 2010 11:59 PM

    Indeed religion of peace, full of rules how to behave, how to stone people, kill apostates, treat woman, marry kids…
    If Allah is so powerful and perfect, why at all he needs human prayers and most of all, humans to act instead of him… hmmm that is a bloody good question, as it reveals that there is no all-powerful being… only us humans, among which are cunning ones who created religion(s) to dominate other (more naive) ones. ;-)

  136. Anya permalink
    November 21, 2010 11:01 PM

    There are multiple fallacies in this. I wonder how many other Extraordinary Claims have been Extraordinarily Misrepresented.

    Probably all of them.

  137. Ponce permalink
    November 21, 2010 3:14 PM

    I dare Allah to destroy me, it can’t do it , because i am more powerful than it

  138. Abdhalkhazz'aar permalink
    November 21, 2010 3:34 AM

    Don’t attack the religion of peace! May Allah destroy you!!!

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s

Follow

Get every new post delivered to your Inbox.

Join 33 other followers

%d bloggers like this: